The Pagan Circle

Does anyone believe that science and religion(spirituality)/evolution and creation can go hand in hand? I've always thought that there could be a very healthy balance. It is very interesting to see science validate various aspects of religion as time progresses.

On the light/dark subject. Pagan traditions usually worshipped both, as the earth has always maintained balance. Both light and day are needed to live.
The full moon doesn't show her face as often as the sun, though. I think this can also play into why full moon sabbats are sometimes more revered, not even considering the pull and the energies. I do think, of course, a light in the dark would have taken an obvious role for worship.

Aly was right about the 'power' of sacred tools, it comes from within.

I do want to point out that some of the obvious Biblical teachings of baptism, sin, uncleanliness, sexuality, etc. and the separation of Deity and ourselves is pretty nonexistant for Pagans today. We are viewed as Unity with Source and created/born (what have you) exactly how we are supposed to be. Being born unclean with sin is not really even an idea shared amoungst Pagans... I don't know any Pagans that baptise unless they have insecurities from past beliefs. (Interestingly enough, some traditions of ancient Pagans bathed their newborns in moonlight!) So sex is not see as dirty, it is viewed as natural and beautiful, similarly to nudity, and so on.

WBF; "My idea is that if God created all things, He is in all things, and controls all things, daily. If not for Him, I don't believe I'd be living breathing me. He is my breath, the breath of life is a gift He gave me. So are the plants, sun, moon, stars, and knowledge of how to use those gifts to benefit myself and serve others. All of the things you all believe about nature and such, are pretty much in line with what I believe as well."

This is a very core value with Pagans as well. We are Source and Source is us. We are one in the same and have the ability to become our own blessed beings.. "Thou art Goddess" is a common term with some of today's traditions.
It matters not, for so many Pagans, because worshipping nature IS worshipping deity. Nature isn't viewed as a 'middleman' or as a obstacle.

So really, the power of a sacred tool comes from within, but also from Source.

Of course, I don't pretend to know everything, nor want to. Got to leave some mysteries out there, right?
There is so much gray area between the here/now, metaphysical, and so forth.. I feel it is important to remain open & very versatile in beliefs. It is a very personal thing...

Britesea said:

If this post seems a little disjointed I'm sorry- I came home and my blood sugar was way low. I've eaten something, but it's gonna take a bit for my hands to stop shaking and stuff

One reason why witches have more to do with the dark is because for a very long time, they had to worship in secret. The cloak of darkness protects from lots of inquisitive eyes.

A lot of pagan beliefs are kind of mish-mashed, because much of it was lost. People would die before they had finished passing on their knowledge. When Gerald Gardner, who was a British witch that is credited with bringing witchcraft out of the shadows, first became a witch he said the coven's rituals were so fragmentary that he and Doreen Valiente felt impelled to rewrite a lot of them. I can tell you that a lot of the 'new' ritual was gleaned from sources like Masonic ritual.

One reason why many witches honor both the female and male aspect of Deity is that balance is required. The qualities of femaleness include intuition and introspection, nurturing, and freedom; the qualities of maleness include research, protection, and order. If you have too much of the female quality in power you have chaos(think touchy-feely, flower child, all you need is love with no thought to the future), too much male creates rigidity and selfishness (picture the Industrial Revolution, Nazis).

Quail - It sounds to me as if your 'friend' was a psychic vampire, whether she knew it or not. And the stone was filled with her most negative energy- no wonder it made you feel bad!

Wannabefree - we believe that we imbue our tools with our own energy for a synergistic effect. It's sort of like having an array of batteries that, when linked together, create more power than any one battery by itself. There is no way to measure this at this time, so we sort of have to take it on faith that this is happening. Sure feels like it!

As far as worshipping Creation vs worshipping the Creator. I do not separate Deity from the Cosmos- it is all one. Therefore, I can accept that Jesus is deity- but by my reasoning, so am I. I hope this doesn't offend you, I am just trying to explain what I see is a primary difference between Christian belief and Wiccan belief. When I salute the Moon, or celebrate the Return Of The Sun at winter solstice- I am not actually worshipping the sun or the moon, but honoring those aspects of Deity. One thing I am not happy about right now is that I have allowed my body, which is a vessel of the Goddess, to become unfit and diseased- so I am working on changing that...

Pinkfox- when you think on it, almost all religious teachings can be boiled down to two simple words: PLAY NICE

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I think you'e described it very well.

For me, the sun and day is active, externally-focused time. Night and moon don't distract with the externalities and allow me to be more inner-focused.

And I also celebrate the gods as the universe as one. I believe in the Big Bang and evolution, but I spiritually view the Big Bang as the Goddess and God consummating their love and bringing the universe into being with their love.

I feel like the parts of the universe are kind of like a family. The moon, stars, trees, all animals, rocks, sun wind, rain, fire and dirt - all contribute to this world. The moon and sun light our way at night and warm us during the day. The moon also affects the tides on this earth, and the flow of female bodies. They cleanse the air so we have enough oxygen to breathe and make beautiful mountains that eventually degrade into rich soil for everyone's food to grow in. Day and night are both crucial for growth. It's all needed for the circle of life to keep going.

We are part of that family too. We make homes from dirt, trees and rock. Sunlight warms out home, winds cool it and rain waters our yard, gardens and fields and fills the springs, wells, and aquifers we drink from. When we are done living our bodies disintegrate or are burned and can feed plants that keep the cycle going. All the stuff that life depends on is important and deserves respect. I consider it all sacred.

Tarot cards, runes, wands and similar things are tools. They help us focus energy for a purpose, like a hammer helps a carpenter. All humans have the energy. Some people just have an easier time with various tools and skills. Different people connect with certain kinds of energy easier. That helps certain skills, habits or tools fit them. I think of the Tarot and runes like a language that the subconscious understands, and uses to give info to the regular mind.

The main difference of doing magic at night there are less distractions. People are so busy during the workday, and you need time to relax, think about what you are doing, and let the energy flow. Some kinds of magic are best done in daytime- like the summer celebrations.

Quail- That witch probably poured lot of stress or sick energy into that stone- then sucked up energy of whatever and whoever was around her, trying to not feel drained. This feels lousy for all the people around. I would have avoided her- since she was the source of the stones yucky energy.

WBF- We all are naturally drawn to stuff that fits us. Your praying before anybody told you to is a great example of it.
My Mom encouraged us to go to church as children, but it was not part of me. I did some psychic stuff as a toddler, and started studying other religions at 7 or 8 years old. I spent so many hours with the families set of encyclopedias and library books. By 14 I knew what fit me, even though I was solitary till 23.

Pinkfox made a great statement here " scientifically it has been proven that everything natural on this world has its own electrical and magnetic energy...
so visualizing it in such a way sometimes helps me visualize and connect when spiritual mind is having a hard time conversing with science mind lol "

Blue Skies - Welcome!

Blackbird- " Does anyone believe that science and religion(spirituality)/evolution and creation can go hand in hand? I've always thought that there could be a very healthy balance. It is very interesting to see science validate various aspects of religion as time progresses. "
Some physics is getting close to there.
You explain things very well.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." ~ Arthur C. Clarke

Crowley summed up the term Magick well and drew an early parallel to science. The k was used to differentiate the term from parlor tricks. See below from wikipedia.

Crowley defined Magick as "the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will."[4][5] He goes on to elaborate on this, in one postulate, and twenty eight theorems. His first clarification on the matter is that of a postulate, in which he states "ANY required change may be effected by the application of the proper kind and degree of Force in the proper manner, through the proper medium to the proper object."[6][7] He goes on further to state:
"Magick is the Science of understanding oneself and one's conditions. It is the Art of applying that understanding in action."

Quantum physics in many areas validates some very early Magick theorums.

The way I see it is the gap between religion/belief structures and science is closing in many areas.

BB - I have always felt that evolution/science and religion go hand in hand. My little simple mind only has to go back a 150 or so years to come to that conclusion. On a tour of antibellium homes the first thing I noticed was the beds. They were all so tiny and short. I am only 5'5" tall and my feet would have hung off the end of the beds. (I know that nots very scientific but it did get me thinking). Few people today could have slept on those beds. All the paintings of the people who lived there were short with different body types than what you see mostly today.

Again not very scientific but it did confirm in my mind that in such a short time humans evolved to be taller with different body types. At that time my only religious knowledge was of the bible and what I had been taught. Teachings that I had always questioned in the back of my mind and never felt comfortable with. So my quest began.

Personally for me - I don't care if you call it the Big Bang Theory or Creation. Isn't it all the same? Even if it was a cosmic event - wasn't that a creation?
We know for a fact that dinosaurs walked this earth and that there was an ice age that wiped them out. Completely? Science says no there were survivors. What was left evolved into what was here when the flood came. Science proved there was a flood. Most every religion has a story about this event. So what was left after the flood evolved into what is here now and that evolution continues on with every birth of every species. Thats as far back as our limited knowledge goes. (As far as I know, I have not checked lately to see if there have been any new discoveries). What was here before is lost or just not discovered yet but science has limits and so do our minds. For some of us (me) there are great limits on what we can comprehend or understand.

I want to thank all of you for allowing me to participate in your thread, but I am going to respectively bow out now.

I walked away for a reason, and I do not want to be tempted into going back (no offense is meant by this statement).

I would like to say, though, before I step away, that our Bible doesn't say the craft or making of magic doesn't work, God just warns those who believe in him to stay away from it. That's MY belief, and I am in no way trying to push it on you, just wanted to explain why I am choosing to not participate in your thread anymore.

Morning folks! Thanks FD for starting this thread! I am thoroughly enjoying it!

Yes I see what you all are saying about the Source. I believe God is everywhere and in everything as well.

hillfarm-didn't mean any implications your beliefs weren't plausible to you, no offense intended. It is personal, and for me one fits and one doesn't just like for everyone else here. I just like to know how everyone else thinks, not necessarily trying to convert anyone here Thanks for your input, I find all this stuff very interesting and appreciate you all having tolerance for others opinions here and all my million questions.

Blackbird-I can definately see where science and spirituality, evolution and Creation go hand in hand. It makes complete sense to me, and I have always thought that. However, evolution as it is generally percieved, is not what I mean. I don't nor will I ever believe I came from a monkey, because there are still monkeys! When things adapt, there is a reason one falls away and one thrives, and i don't see that with monkeys and humans, as I can say.. dinosaurs and birds. We're very obviously both still here But there are proofs that things(plants and animals) adapt to their environments over time. So yeah I can see that, and find it very interesting I'm not the only one who sees it

Here's a brainbender for you all. I believe very much in your abilities that you are claiming. I believe also in psychic experience, spirits(of the ghostly nature), and all such things. Heck, I don't discount Bigfoot, fairies, or aliens, completely. I am but a small speck of dust, who am I to judge whether or not the Creator created these things? I know that seems to contradict what I said earlier, but I think experience speaks volumes, where inexperience keeps it's opinion grounded, and it's eyes open to possibilities.

I'm pretty open minded and in agreement with ya'll, with the exception of personally believing we as wimpy little humans most definately need a Savior IMO we're kinda dumb and need a parent still And with parenting comes corrections and the need for correction. I feel the need for a teacher. I don't believe creation can teach me, and while I believe God is in all things, I believe in a singular deity. Every body(is supposed to)has arms, legs, ears, etc. etc. but those are parts(creation) that works together to make the whole(the Creator) functional and alive and real. A body is nothing more than function without the Spirit, the guide, or teacher. I believe that Jesus is the way, guide, and teacher, that was sent by the all knowing original deity, to smack some sense into us so to speak, to spiritually introduce us to God.

So basically, what I see is the need for a link to the Source. I see the Source as God, and the link as Christ rather than creation. I know some of you feel the Jesus story is legend, kind of the same as I feel about fairies and such. I just think it's pretty cool that we're all finding out that we're not so different in our beliefs.

Someone mentioned a while back predjudices. I think I've lost mine I'm glad I came in here and asked a bunch of questions. I know we'll likely never see it completely the way the opposing side of this debate does, but understanding and acceptance is still nice. I think all of you are very smart, and I am impressed with your abilities to articulate your beliefs. I have ran across so many folks who don't even know why they believe what they do, and it is frustrating to me! I'm naturally inquisitive and I want REAL answers So thanks to all who have responded to my questions

Wannabefree said:

I just think it's pretty cool that we're all finding out that we're not so different in our beliefs.

Someone mentioned a while back predjudices. I think I've lost mine I'm glad I came in here and asked a bunch of questions. I know we'll likely never see it completely the way the opposing side of this debate does, but understanding and acceptance is still nice. I think all of you are very smart, and I am impressed with your abilities to articulate your beliefs. I have ran across so many folks who don't even know why they believe what they do, and it is frustrating to me! I'm naturally inquisitive and I want REAL answers So thanks to all who have responded to my questions

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Thank you for taking the time to ask respectfully and actually read the responses. I love folks who are willing to ask, listen and try to understand regardless of whether they agree or what their religion is. I explored many religious paths as a teen, finally coming to Wicca and finding myself home. For others, some form of Christianity was home. In my initiation, I was taught "Do not blaspheme the name by which another knows their god". There are many paths that lead to connectedness with the divine - which is what religion is supposed to be about, imho. While I may not follow your path (I have nothing I feel I need to be "saved" from), I respect your choice and right to follow that path and truly hope that it brings you blessings.

AnnaRaven said:

Wannabefree said:

I just think it's pretty cool that we're all finding out that we're not so different in our beliefs.

Someone mentioned a while back predjudices. I think I've lost mine I'm glad I came in here and asked a bunch of questions. I know we'll likely never see it completely the way the opposing side of this debate does, but understanding and acceptance is still nice. I think all of you are very smart, and I am impressed with your abilities to articulate your beliefs. I have ran across so many folks who don't even know why they believe what they do, and it is frustrating to me! I'm naturally inquisitive and I want REAL answers So thanks to all who have responded to my questions

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Thank you for taking the time to ask respectfully and actually read the responses. I love folks who are willing to ask, listen and try to understand regardless of whether they agree or what their religion is. I explored many religious paths as a teen, finally coming to Wicca and finding myself home. For others, some form of Christianity was home. In my initiation, I was taught "Do not blaspheme the name by which another knows their god". There are many paths that lead to connectedness with the divine - which is what religion is supposed to be about, imho. While I may not follow your path (I have nothing I feel I need to be "saved" from), I respect your choice and right to follow that path and truly hope that it brings you blessings.

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Thanks, that is so sweet!