Calling all trekkies (science nerds/geeks!): Treated hay

[ohiofarmgirl]

Love it! I PM'd him, hopefully he will reply. Meanwhile, I know there are many nerds here......waiting.....waiting.....waiting.....

thats FARM nerds to you! ha!
;-)

i keep hoping that Far Side guy will do a cartoon of "when nerds farm"... basically whatcha got is me and Bourbon Red out there in the field while our respective spouses die of embarrassment.

or worse

all of us at the Horse Progress days... (the latest technology in amish farming)

me to BR: *grabbing his arm* LOOK! manure spreaders!!
BR: *twittering like a little girl* lets go!
*two run off together leaving BR's Lovely Wife and The Big Man to hang their heads in shame*

if i could attach a pocket protector to my work boots i would.

 

[abifae]

silly auntie. conventional wisdom is based on years of anecdotal evidence. ie: proven fact. how can you not fall in line? /end sarcasm


just strictly on the thought game of changing ph of food....

just sounds like something that would therefore digest wrong.

i mean, i can't eat foods that are too basic. i don't have the stomach acid for it.

i imagine this is why it causes ulcers in some horses. *shrugs*

eta: from my brother in law paleontologist who HAS studied this to some extent at least.... he studies molds and bacteria to a large extent. was his master's. his doctorate is in decay and dinos.

Joseph: don't see how the acid could cause ulcers in the animals.... unless by reducing the mold the bacterial population blooms due to lack of competition.

Joseph : i would recommend rather than acid use a dilute hydrogen peroxide. that has been shown to reduce mold and bacteria and actually helps the animals that eat it grow better... I should state that the research on that is rather preliminary and not exceptionally well documented and contolled, but at least there is some research to support the hypothesis

 

[patandchickens]

What's the fuss?

Propionic acid (although not always in combination with citric acid) has been used in haying for, gee whiz, I dunno, MY whole lifetime certainly, possibly longer I dunno. (I am 45)

(No, wait -- I googled, and *seem* to have found the original journal paper reporting this technique, dated 1976. So not QUITE my whole life, but certainly it's been around my whole *adult* life )

Propionic acid occurs naturally in the intestinal tract, and the amount added to the hay is really quite small, so it is not obvious that there 'should' be problems from it.

It is most commonly used on hay for cattle not horses. Indeed PA-treated hay is used fairly extensively for cattle as far as I know.

Its use in horses is also pretty well-established, and several studies have found no adverse effects; still, there is certainly a lot more reluctance among horseowners to use PA-treated hay than among cattle farmers. I prefer not to use it myself, not because I have any specific concerns but just because I have always been able to find good-quality NONtreated hay so obviously I prefer that.

I tell you what, though, it is way WAY better to feed PA-treated hay than *moldy* hay, which is what the propionic acid treatment prevents. Let's face it, the weather does not always cooperate with haying, and IMO it is very good that there are ways like this to avoid major losses to the hay crop (which would drive prices up hugely even for those feeding untreated hay)

This is SO not a new issue though, guys

Pat

 

[abifae]

thanks pat! i just looked up the chemical since FreeM asked. i've never had animals so no klew here lol.

 

[freemotion]

It is new in my neck of the woods. This is the first farmer to get this system. Of course, hay farmers are rare where real estate prices are outrageous. They can't afford to use the land for hay, mostly. I am between Boston, NYC, and Hartford. Very urban/suburban yet somehow the locals like to call it rural.

Pat, if there is absolutely no problem with it, I find it curious that you avoid it. Could be that I still have my contacts in and can't read, but that seems like a contradition.

 

[patandchickens]

Why is that 'curious'? There are any number of things in life that have been looked at moderately well with no harmful effects found, but that I still avoid if given the choice. I just prefer normal straightforward plain-vanilla things, on general principle and by personal taste <shrug>

Given a choice between moldy hay and PA-treated hay, I'd buy and feed the PA-treated hay without any qualms at all.

The only thing where I might have a tougher time deciding would be if the only untreated hay that was available was really pretty poor quality (not moldy as such but just overmature stemmy low-nutrient) while high-quality PA hay was available. In that case I suppose it would depend on the particular individual animals I was feeding, but I might well go with the treated hay.

Since I'm fortunate to live in a very hay-producing area, and in fact always HAVE lived in reasonably "hay-ey" places so to speak, it's not a choice I've had to make as of yet.

Pat

 

[freemotion]

Here is Guinea Goonie's response to me via PM:

Propionic acid and citric acid are used as preservatives in alot of foods. You can do a google search on either and the hits are quite a lot. propionic acid is more of a "fungal" agent.

Ammonium hydroxide (the hydoxide part) will raise the pH of all water based products. A neutral pH is 7.0, so a pH of 6 is actaully an acidic pH. a pH higher that 7 is what is called a "basic" pH.

Again a google search on NH4OH (ammonium hydroxide) will raise the pH which citric and propionic acid will both lower because they are weak aciids. So the ammonium hydroxide will raise the pH from a lower pH which the propionic and citric acid cause and therefore achieving a pH more towards neutral. An acidic or basic pH CAN be harmful to us or our animals.

Now for the "vapor pressure". If you google vapor pressure, which is a physical aspect of ANY chemical including water you will learn this:

The greater the fraction of molecules which can escape the liquid, the greater the vapor pressure. Simply meaning that in a liquid molecules of that liquid will go to a vapor into a "closed" atmosphere escaping the liquid phase and going into the gas phase, thus giving the liquds Vapor Pressure. There is an equilibrium of the gas phase going back to a liquid phase in a CLOSED atmophere.
Now, solids such as Carbon dioxide (dry ice) will skip the liquid phase and go directrly to the gas phase from the solid.

A liquid with a "high" vapor pressure is decribed as the ability of that substance to acheive a lower boiling point.
A "low" vapor priessure is decribed as the ability of that substance to achieve a higher boing point. All this can be in an OPEN atmosphere which we ALL are currently experiencing for life to continue. As an example. Liquid nitrogen will "boil" in on OPEN atmosphere until it is completely gone.
It is soooo cold in the liquid phase it goes to the gas phase almost explosively. One can look at the boiling point in a new light with this example. Gasoline will evaporate darn near explosively in an open atmosphere. Water will evaporate slowly. There really is no need to add heat other than the ambient temperature. The liquds vapor pressure defined in a CLOSED atmosphere is a scientific measurement. Therefore one can predict how a liquid will behave in an OPEN atmosphere.

It is a bit confusing. A substance like WD-40 has a nice vapor pressure (not too high or low) and it evaporates over time nicely, whereas plain old oil has a low vapor pressure (it's molecules do not escape the liquid phase as easily) and therefore it does not evaporate easily. As you can guess, gasoline has a very HIGH vapor pressure and evaporate quickly and with a spark, explosively.

There are more lessens to learn about solvents and solutes. something your thread touched apon. This should be for another time though.

Sure hope this helps. G.G.

Clear as mud! Still don't know how safe it is....Just that it evaporates...? So does hexane, and I don't use oils extracted with it....Gasoline evaporates well, and I wouldn't use a container that ever held gasoline for food.

Guess that answers it.

 

[Henrietta23]

That made my head hurt. I wonder if this is going to be the new thing out this way. I can honestly say I'd never heard of such a thing before today.

 

[~gd]

It is new in my neck of the woods. This is the first farmer to get this system. Of course, hay farmers are rare where real estate prices are outrageous. They can't afford to use the land for hay, mostly. I am between Boston, NYC, and Hartford. Very urban/suburban yet somehow the locals like to call it rural.

Pat, if there is absolutely no problem with it, I find it curious that you avoid it. Could be that I still have my contacts in and can't read, but that seems like a contradition.

Let me be a little more blunt, Under good conditions with a good farmer it is not needed, gently sun dried hay is hard to beat. If you have bad weather for making hay this treatment might be a help, it is surely better than moldy hay that can result from bad weather/bad farm practice. If a supplier told me he was planning to use it when others in the area don't he just confessed that he couldn't make good hay without chemical help. If the climate is such that everybody has trouble making hay. The treated hay is probably better than untreated/moldy hay. It is surely cheaper than having good natural hay shipped in. you sir have never made hay have you?

 

[freemotion]

Let me be a little more blunt, Under good conditions with a good farmer it is not needed, gently sun dried hay is hard to beat. If you have bad weather for making hay this treatment might be a help, it is surely better than moldy hay that can result from bad weather/bad farm practice. If a supplier told me he was planning to use it when others in the area don't he just confessed that he couldn't make good hay without chemical help. If the climate is such that everybody has trouble making hay. The treated hay is probably better than untreated/moldy hay. It is surely cheaper than having good natural hay shipped in. you sir have never made hay have you?

Actually, I have. No need to be snotty. I also understand all those points. Sheesh. We've had a lot of rain the past couple of seasons and it has been difficult for everyone. I have never been sold moldy hay from the farmers I buy from. I deal with people with integrity and intelligence and they throw moldy hay out or sell it for mulch.

Play nice.