Can a green house save you money?

[~gd]

The jugs contain a total of 745 gallons, but that isn't my entire heat sink. The entire floor and both growing beds will act as a heat sink as well. I also used insulation on the INSIDE of the front and side walls, that extends down into the earth 18 inches deep. That will be my frost break and protect that front bed from any freeze or frost coming in from the bottom from cooling the front bed. The walkway down the center is also insulated underneath to help retain any solar gain. The wall behind those jugs is 6 inches thick with OSB on the inside and the outside with a full 6 inches insulation between, as well as the siding(for a dead air space) and an additional 1 inch thick foam board behind the jugs. The jugs themselves are setting on 4 inch thick concrete that is also insulated on the bottom side. My largest heat loss will be through the thermopane windows and the sliding glass doors. I am contemplating on using a solar pool cover to make a "curtain" that could be lowered behind the entire front glass wall at night to help retain heat. That is still in the thought process. I may just wait and see how this works out this winter. I plan on tracking the outside vs the inside temp this first winter to give me some idea as to when to plant inside. The biggest problem is going to be the lack of sunlight after November 15. We will need to have all of our stuff actually producing BEFORE that date. I may have to add some grow lights on timers if this proves to be the case.
Sorry for the ramble, but I just got out of bed and am on my first cup-o-joe. http://www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gif

I am not trying to be a PITA, I really hope it works out well for you. Many of todays details were not evident in the thread you posted or in the pictures there. Surely your frost line must run deeper than 18 inches? Have you made provisions to insure that your insulation remains dry, a little too much water on your grow beds is going to end up on the floor not to mention the moisture in the air at the end of the day which will condense as the air cools (of course it will have to give off all the heat that turned it to water vapor during the day time!) 1"foam board doesn't have much of a R value I used 2 layers of the stuff to line my cold frames here in sunny winter NC where we usually average a 30 degree swing between day and night. Are your windows/doors framed with metal/plastic/wood? they usually lose as much heat as the thermopanes do. I know nothing about solar pool covers I thought the whole idea of them was to let heat in to warm the water. I have no idea where it comes from or what the cost is but flex plastic sheet mirrored on one side is very popular with greenhouse and other indoor "growers".The greenhouse people use it to reflect the heat back into the house during the winter and then turn it around to keep the sun/heat out during the summer when unmanged greenhouses can get up to 160. "grow" rooms with no sunlight are usually completely covered with it to reflect the light from from grow lights. One final question was the angle of your window wall calculated for your latitude or did you just eyeball it?
I envy you your coffee, Dr. says no caffene (sp?) avoid sugar and artifical sweeteners. so I sit here with my morning drink, 4oz of orange juice and 12 ounces of water, I can be a bear in the morning!~gd

 

[patandchickens]

Rather than daydreaming about things one could do if only there were time and money aplenty, plenty of vegetables can be grown NOW, or a coldframe could be built from scrounged materials to use this fall (I say coldframe because they're portable, so when you move it can easily go with you).

If there "are no jobs out there", literally, which is not true of much of the country but I am sure is true in some particular places, then daydreaming about things one could do if only one had a job is a little pointless. It would seem you'd need either to figure out how to go somewhere else for a while where there ARE jobs, even if it means temporary separation from your s.o. and daughter, or putting that daydream energy into figuring out how to realistically live without a job in the long term. Sorry to be blunt, but, you know. Wishes and waiting don't change things, *changing things* changes things. You clearly have a lot of energy and creativity in thinking and planning -- surely it would be more useful to direct it to the realistic situation?

For instance have you considered getting some old weedwhacker or lawnmower or whatever that someone's throwing away, then check out a book on fixing small engines from the local library, and start figuring it out. The great thing is that material to learn on -- broken small engines -- is always around and free Once you get some facility at figuring out what's wrong and fixing it (parts are usually inexpensive or unnecessary) it is a small marketable skill but also it is handy for use in your own life.

~gd, many of your "concerns" about SKR8PN's design are unfounded -- the relevance of the frostline isn't what you seem to think it is, the exact angle of the glass is not crucial, and it is definitely possible to harvest food (greens, that is) from a greenhouse all winter throughout the lower 48 states -- it may not be *growing* much if at all during the short-day part of winter but it can be *standing* there waiting for harvest. You might read some of Elliott Coleman's books and see what he's doing.

Pat

 

[hwillm1977]

I have Elliot Coleman's book (Four season harvest) and living on the border of Zone 4-5 we have cold frames in the yard that can provide food in the middle of february... I've shoveled snow off the top of them to harvest greens (which are more or less dormant, but very edible). It certainly isn't citrus fruit, but I've accepted that certain fruits just will never grow here... We can grow apples, pears, plums, cherries and kiwis in the yard and that's great for me (although we're not getting trees until next year).

Maybe instead of dreaming about growing citrus in a heated greenhouse, try researching what can and will grow in your zone year round. I highly recommend Elliot Coleman's books.

You can always extend your season for a few months with a simple hoop house... you can build one of those for about $200, but the plastic won't withstand a heavy snow load so you do have to take it down for the winter unless you invest in some really heavy duty plastic. We found commercial greenhouses here that replace their plastic every year, they gave us a sheet of the plastic from last year and we're using that to build a hoop house this year... free is great!

 

[SKR8PN]

The jugs contain a total of 745 gallons, but that isn't my entire heat sink. The entire floor and both growing beds will act as a heat sink as well. I also used insulation on the INSIDE of the front and side walls, that extends down into the earth 18 inches deep. That will be my frost break and protect that front bed from any freeze or frost coming in from the bottom from cooling the front bed. The walkway down the center is also insulated underneath to help retain any solar gain. The wall behind those jugs is 6 inches thick with OSB on the inside and the outside with a full 6 inches insulation between, as well as the siding(for a dead air space) and an additional 1 inch thick foam board behind the jugs. The jugs themselves are setting on 4 inch thick concrete that is also insulated on the bottom side. My largest heat loss will be through the thermopane windows and the sliding glass doors. I am contemplating on using a solar pool cover to make a "curtain" that could be lowered behind the entire front glass wall at night to help retain heat. That is still in the thought process. I may just wait and see how this works out this winter. I plan on tracking the outside vs the inside temp this first winter to give me some idea as to when to plant inside. The biggest problem is going to be the lack of sunlight after November 15. We will need to have all of our stuff actually producing BEFORE that date. I may have to add some grow lights on timers if this proves to be the case.
Sorry for the ramble, but I just got out of bed and am on my first cup-o-joe. http://www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gif

I am not trying to be a PITA, I really hope it works out well for you. Many of todays details were not evident in the thread you posted or in the pictures there. Surely your frost line must run deeper than 18 inches? Have you made provisions to insure that your insulation remains dry, a little too much water on your grow beds is going to end up on the floor not to mention the moisture in the air at the end of the day which will condense as the air cools (of course it will have to give off all the heat that turned it to water vapor during the day time!) 1"foam board doesn't have much of a R value I used 2 layers of the stuff to line my cold frames here in sunny winter NC where we usually average a 30 degree swing between day and night. Are your windows/doors framed with metal/plastic/wood? they usually lose as much heat as the thermopanes do. I know nothing about solar pool covers I thought the whole idea of them was to let heat in to warm the water. I have no idea where it comes from or what the cost is but flex plastic sheet mirrored on one side is very popular with greenhouse and other indoor "growers".The greenhouse people use it to reflect the heat back into the house during the winter and then turn it around to keep the sun/heat out during the summer when unmanged greenhouses can get up to 160. "grow" rooms with no sunlight are usually completely covered with it to reflect the light from from grow lights. One final question was the angle of your window wall calculated for your latitude or did you just eyeball it?
I envy you your coffee, Dr. says no caffene (sp?) avoid sugar and artifical sweeteners. so I sit here with my morning drink, 4oz of orange juice and 12 ounces of water, I can be a bear in the morning!~gd

Frost line here in Ohio is "supposed" to be 36 inches, but it never freezes that deep. We get to much snow cover which actually acts as an insulation from the brutal cold that we can get in late Jan/Feb.
I also earthbermed the south wall to aid in insulation value. I did use plastic to seal the insulation that is under the walkway and under the concrete, but the foam board that I used as a frost break in the front bed is foil backed on one side and blue coated on the other so I didn't worry about the water thing in that respect. All it has to do is stop any frost invasion from the bottom/outside. That bed is 14 inches deep, on top of the 18 inches of foam board depth. The wall angle was a planned calculation for our latitude. It is set at 70 degrees to optimize any available sunlight in the winter months. Unfortunately that is the minimum angle that I could get. I couldn't really lay it back any farther without making the floor plan deeper to accommodate the sliding door height.


I was thinking that maybe the solar pool cover, if reversed, would work OK for a curtain. They are actually designed to hold heat in the water at night. I have access to a very large piece of it for free, so cost isn't an issue if it doesn't work out. That is still in the planning/thinking stages though............

 

[Jaxom]

SKR8PN

I probably did see your project. I did a search of the forums for green houses. I will check your link though to see any new progress. Suggestion, if you need supplimental light, research led's. There's been some major investments in led grow lights. Incandesent lights waste too much energy and metal halide or high pressure sodiums eat up power faster then a house full of teenagers!

Pat and hwillm1977

Please, understand I do appericate your concerns and comments. Again, I'm open to suggestions. However, and I didn't want to go into more details about my situation, it really has nothing to do with this thread. But still I'm open mineded enough to listen. And for you to understand I have done and am still doing everything I can do right now to find work. I am in contact with several state, county and city agencies, not withstanding I scan no less then a dozen job websites (like monster, hotjobs, ect) per day. And that doesn't even begin to count the number of place I physically contact in person per day.

My biggest issue right now is not that I'm dreaming about things. My biggest issue is not having my own transportation. I live on the near west side of Chicago. Not withing the city limits, but a nearby suburb. The public transportation system we have in this area leaves very little to be desired. To this end I have had plan that I am activly working on daily.

1)hold estate sale, sell everything that's not absolutly needed 2)fix truck (needs fuel pump) 3)hit indstrail parks in area's I haven't been able to job search because public transportation doesn't go there 4)hold off moving until last moment-banking every dime I can till I move.

I honestly don't want to move now. At least not under these circumstances. But because of the situation I am in, I cannot afford to turn down any job, even if that means taking one that's at minium (state) wage. Being adaptable and willing to do this, means I cannot afford a single bedroom studio apartment in my area, let alone a house. I can do that if I move else where, in area's that I have researched online where renting a house could be as low as $300 a month!

In the meantime, I've also contacted a lawyer, my mother didn't have a will, so I needed to review the aspects about going through probate. This lawyer put me in contact wtih a real estate broker. Currently the broker and lawyer are looking at the legal aspects of putting the house in my name in order to do a short sale. I'm already 9 months behind on the mortgage, but because of the current market and the number of foreclosed homes, the broker and lawyer both agreed I can have at least another 7-9 months before the mortgage company serves me with eviction papers. The biggest issue then would be the utility companies. Because I wasn't working, and taking care of my mother, we're very far behind on those. Last estimates was around $6000 behind on electric and $2500 behind on gas. I worked out a deal with the electric co, so they're holding off disconnection, the gas company is being a "pima". Won't even talk to me because the account is still in my mother's name. If they shut me off, I'm pretty much screwed. Unless I can get back to work again. And start paying them...something.

As far as growing my own veggies, because of the above situations you can see it's not worth the time, effort, and expence. I will say this though. Those days I cannot job hunt, and I need a break from working on the estate sale, I am within walking distance to a forest preserve. Last night I did some research into forageing wild fruits and veggies. I would like to also add, this, I'm fully aware of doing a late summer, fall garden. This house is actually the second one my mother purchased. The first one we had was a smaller home on a double wide lot. No garage, had enourmous back yard. We had a huge garden there, and it was during this time that mom taught me how to preserve and can. What we didn't grow we bought from fruit stands or traded with her brother's and sisters for. (Grandfather had a farm, so mom and all her bro's and sis's had gardens, fruit trees, ect)

Moving from where I am is exactilly what I'm doing Pat. I currently live only 30 minutes from my s/o and daughter. Area's I'm concidering are 2-4 hours away. S/O is NOT happy with this, so I challenged her to either find me someplace closer to live or help me find someplace that pays well enough so I don't have to move.

Anyways, I need to get back to working on my sale. Sadly, last week wednesday we had some severe thunderstorms and sapposedly a tornado come through the area. The first time in 27 years that I've lived in this house, the basement flooded. And this is were I'm setting up the estate sale. Fortunilly after getting down there last weekend once the water went down, I didn't loose much. Just a half a box of books and a box of crafting supplies, and some yarn. But it's taken most of this week to get the area dried out and the musty/moldy smell taken care of. To continue being productive, I've gone through every closet, cabinet, shelf and what not on the main floor and well as emptied out the attic storage looking for every last thing I don't need that I can sell.

Reality is this...get truck working and then go from there.

 

[MountainMom]

I live in the mountains and have a short growing season. I recently remodeled my bathroom and put a garden window there, and thus can actually grow tomatoes and basil.

I was toying with the idea of building a small, aesthetically pleasing greenhouse in my backyard, to amplify the rays and allow me to grow things that need more heat than my climate provides.

 

[i_am2bz]

A small cold frame or 'cold house' greenhouse can be more worthwhile, if you can build it for basically-free, by providing you with some sort of greens for much or all of the winter at little or no operating cost.

patandchickens, can you expound a little more about this...? The difference between a "regular" greenhouse & "cold house" greenhouse...?

 

[rty007]

Commercial greenhouses are divided into hot houses and cold houses
hot house is heated all through winter with a month of deepest winter for cleaning, disinfection, and propagating new plants.

while cold houses are used just to extend the season,no additional heating

 

[MountainMom]

One way to heat a greenhouse is with rotting manure.

 

[jynxthecat21]

One of the guys I work with was talking about using a waste oil burner to heat his shop, I bet that could work for a green house.