Grape arbor construction help needed...

[freemotion]

I will be going out back soon to cut some small maples with which to construct a rustic grape arbor. I'd really like to put it right outside my livingroom windows, where it will block the sun in the hot weather and provide a nice outdoor room with some chairs and a table. I want to make the type that is tall enough to do this, the vines going up a couple of the supports, and the vines forming the roof. Yes, I will need a stool to harvest the grapes, that will be fine.

Problem is, I'm not exactly sure where the septic system pipes are....I will find the plans soon or go to the town hall and get a copy, but I suspect that I won't be setting these posts in concrete if I put the arbor where I want to.

My question is this....can I set the uprights on those cement thingies that are used to make decks? You know, it is a hunk of concrete with metal sticking out of it to attach your post to? Will this also slow rot in my maple logs?

Or should I ditch the whole idea and set pressure treated (ugh) fence posts into the ground in another location and deal with not getting everything that I want?

I'm thinking of attaching a cattle panel on top to support the vines, along with smaller logs to support the cattle panel. I would cut the panel into two sections so my "room" would be about 8'x8' and the panel would help keep the vines from looping down into the "room" and we would hit our heads on the grapes....

 

[Wifezilla]

I would use the footers if my soil is going to be a pain to dig up.

We did have to train a few vines here and there, but going down usually isn't a big problem. They like to go up

 

[freemotion]

I saw a lovely arbor near my office with a picnic table under it recently, and some of the heavy vines on top were looping down, where someone standing up from the bench would hit their head on it. Maybe the owner was not vigilant about training the vine as it grew? I probably would be negligent, too, until it was too late! Or there would be a big gigantic spider nest and I would be too afraid to go near it.....

 

[patandchickens]

You suuuuuure you want to use fresh-cut "rustic" maple posts/poles? They will not last long. At least don't use them for the *posts*, huh? Or if you do, put them in those metal saddle brackets atop concrete sonotube footers, so that when they disintegrate in a few years you can replace them without digging. (You'd still have to take the whole arbor apart though, and that is not going to jibe well with some styles of grapevine management).

Something more rotproof, like honey locust or cedar, would be a whole lot better if you want "rustic". Unless you use substantial-diameter cedar fenceposts for your posts, though, I'd still suggest putting them on concrete foundations, rather than sinking the posts in the ground.

Seriously, cut maple sunk in the ground will be rotted through in a year or three. There are nasty toxic things you can soak the wood in that will somewhat slow the rot but even creosoted plain maple will not last long at all in the ground. (Even the aboveground parts will not last awfully long, especially if you leave the bark on, and personally I would only use it for vines that are annuals or can safely be cut back to the ground every few years like clematis)

JMHO,

Pat

 

[freemotion]

Hmm, that is what I was worried about. I just thought of maple because I have a bunch of red maple in the swamp, and it is frozen back there right now, perfect time for cutting. I do NOT want to rebuild the darn thing, under a heavy vine, in three years! Maybe I should just buy the pt posts. Ick. Trunks would be so cool looking.

 

[Denim Deb]

Do you have any black locust growing? I don't think it's native to your area, but I know that people used to plant it outside of it's normal range in order to be able to use it for fence posts.

 

[patandchickens]

Cedar fenceposts (you know, like you'd use for board or post-and-rail horse fencing) last a good long time without rot, and are not p/t, and are "reasonably" rustic looking. In fact you could deliberately ask the feedstore to let you pick ones that are bent or have a bunch of wane (bark remaining on them in places where they were too narrow), to look even rustic-er.

In fact you could use cedar fenceposts for the horizontals too, get the small-diameter ones that people use for electric fencing (what are they, like maybe 3" nominal diameter? and they usually have substantial taper and the nubby bases of branches still visible, for a greater natural look). Or split cedar rails.

I'm just concerned about using something so very short-lived (even in aboveground use) for a grape arbor that you want to support long-lived not-cut-back-to-the-ground vines, you know?

Alternatively perhaps you could design something with a post-and-beam type simple skeleton of cedar fenceposts, and very heavy gauge wires strung across to support additional area of vines up there?

Pat

 

[SKR8PN]

Do you have access to any Locust trees to cut into posts? They work better than PT or Cedar posts. If not, I would vote for the PT posts.