Green Acres... What to look for in a property?

[savingdogs]

location, location, location

How do you foresee the area developing? How do you foresee your life changing as you get older? Where is this place in relation to other people in your life you want to be around? Does the property have the potential to satisfy all of your future whims? The property needs to be right but also in the right place. Is it near a large city for employment and entertainment and shopping purposes? Is it on a big road if you want to sell things from your home, or is it away from it all if that is your preference? How long is your drive to grocery/hospitals/town? When we moved up onto our hill we were imagining the long scenic drives we would take to this place, not the INABILITY to get out during a severe storm or the price of gas to make it to the closest little market. We still like the trade off of being so remote, but it is certainly an important factor to consider. For instance, with livestock sales I need to make, I find that just the name of my closest city is a bit off-putting, it is known to be such a remote place and then my home is farther out still, so most of my livestock sales have been to people living extremely locally, when I anticipated a market from the big city nearby.

 

[patandchickens]

We will NEVER have a horse. Ever. Any other animal that might earn its keep or be of a benefit to us is possible.

Yah, well Let me tell you, when we moved here my bottom line was "we will always have horses, maybe goats someday or three or six chickens, but never more poultry and never sheep". Current status: horses may not get replaced when they die of old age, probably never any goats, several dozen chickens and turkeys, and nine sheep

What do I need to support our future mini-farm?
How many acres to graze a Jersey cow (dairy) or beefer? Dairy goats?

That depends entirely on your area/soil/etc, you need to ask LOCALLY and remember it will vary among properties. Also, find out whether there are legal restrictions on how many cow-equivalents (or any other expression of total livestock density) you can have, either period or 'without jumping thru additional hoops'. For instacne, on our property here we are allowed I think 5 cattle-equivalents and beyond that we would (technically) be required to ahve a nutrient management plan approved. Varies alot between areas though, no clue what your neck of the woods is like.

How much "barn" is needed?

Enough to store your winter's hay in, unless you are REAL sure you can resupply during the winter (and afford it); plus enough for a windbreak/shelter/shed type thing for your animal population. Barn must have a GOOD ROOF (moldy hay is virtually useless).

What else to look for in a property?

Reliable, potable-quality water supply with sufficient flow rate for both your needs AND your animals and no bad tendency to go dry.

Essential parts of property (house, road access, barn, and enough paddock area for animals) stay firmly abovewater at all times of year.

Ideally some reasonable windbreak-type features (vegetation, landscape, manmade, whatever)

This is the last move we will make. I also need to think about aging and retiring there.

So, think about driveway plowing; whether there are drainage ditches that need clearing in late winter to prevent flooding (why we will move elsewhere when DH retires!); distance to neighbors/stores/hospital; whether you could stay in the house without ability to climb stairs (is there level access from where car is parked; are kitchen, bathroom and something usable as bedroom all on same level without needing to use stairs, if it should come to that).

Good luck, have fun ,

Pat

 

[lorihadams]

Okay, I'll chime in....

1. Are you going to look for something with an existing home or are you going to build on raw land? If you are going to buy an existing home you need to know a GOOD inspector that will be honest and upfront with you and get a home inspection before you sign anything. You need to know exactly what you will be able to live with in an existing structure and what you would be willing to compromise on. For example, if you find a house with good bones but it is small does it have a floor plan that would allow you to add on/restructure fairly easily? If you are looking at building a home you need to get estimates from contractors before you start looking at land for well, septic, permits, etc so you can figure that into your overall budget.

2. Do you want lots of open land or land that is wooded and needs to be cleared at some point or part of each? The good thing about open land is that it is easily made into pasture with fencing. The bad news is that you have no shade and will have to figure in for the cost of adding structures or trees for livestock to get out of the sun/weather. The good thing about wooded land is that it is better for hunting if you are into that, you have a source of firewood if you are heating with it, and you have a potential source of income if you need to clear out some old larger growth trees later. The bad thing is that if you ever want to put in a garden you will need to figure for sun exposure and fencing in a wooded area can be a PITA.

3. What animals do you want/need? Chickens/ducks/rabbits are fairly easy and housing is not that difficult to build for them. If you want goats or cows or sheep then you need to get estimates for materials to build barns for them and include hay storage in that estimate. There are lower cost alternatives to building wodden structures, you can do metal hoop style buildings and partition the insides off with cattle panels.

4. What are your goals? Do you want to make an income off this or do you want to just take care of your own family's needs. We have 3 acres that is partially wooded and partially open and that is plenty big for us to have a garden, bee hives, chicken/duck run, space to run a chicken tractor for meat birds, goat pasture (we are doing nigerian dwarf goats for dairy), small barn, clothesline, and plenty of yard space leftover if we need to expand a little and for the kids to play. We also have access to family land next door to use for hunting deer and we have stopped buying beef altogether. We should be able to recoup our expenses in about 5 years or so. We are breaking even and sometimes making a small profit on the chickens and ducks. I have gotten my expenses on those down to $20 per month for feed and bedding and I sell my eggs for $2.50 per dozen. Most months I easily make that. The goats will take longer because we had to build a barn, but we got a large shed for my milking parlor/feed storage and then attached lean tos on both the long sides and use one for hay/straw storage and the other for the goat housing.

5. What is your absolute bottom line as far as money goes? You need to be able to have extra money for "oh sh*! moments". Make sure you don't spread yourself so thin that you lose the house if something happens. You also need to find out what your property taxes will be and figure those into your yearly expenses.
We were able to come in under budget here enough for us to add a garage that will double as a woodworking shop/processing building for us that will bring in some extra income. We are able to get our payments in reasonably enough to have our mortgage (including the new garage) paid off in 10 years. We put aside our tax refund every year to pay our property taxes on the house and cars.

6. Can you save money by doing some work yourself? If not, learn or figure hiring contractors to do work for you. Go well below your budget on the property if you will need to hire out someone to do work for you.


Good luck! Make sure you talk to the neighbors before you buy anything!!!

 

[lorihadams]

Oh, another piece of advice...for anyone looking to buy a home. Do your budget based on only one income if you both work. That way you know that with the money from one income you can cover your bills and the other's income is socked away into savings and used to pay cash for anything that pops up. That way if one of you loses your job or gets hurt or whatever then you know for sure that you can cover your basic expenses.

 

[lwheelr]

Another bit about wells...

There is a vast difference between a "shallow well" and a "deep well". They are often termed this way in property descriptions.

A shallow well is often hand dug, just deep enough so that water pools in it. They are more likely to go dry in the summer, and are easily contaminated by surface runoff.

A deep well goes into the water table, and is more likely to stay flowing without dry-outs, generally has cleaner water, and is less subject to surface contamination.


Knowing what I do now about this property that we are on (and one that we previously managed), I'd also be looking for existing water lines - and documentation of them. There are water taps all over this property, in various stages of function or non-function. Just because it is THERE, does not mean it works.

But you can also see on this property, that years and years of work have gone into it - barns, sheds, pens, water lines, electric connections, walls, reservoirs, etc. Anything usable adds to the value, at least in the time it will take for you to get things functional, even if it does not actually add cash value to the place. Here, we'd need to replace fence wire - the posts are still solid. That is a lot less work than building fences from scratch. We'd also have to nail down siding on most of the outbuildings - again, a heckuva lot cheaper and quicker than building from scratch. There is a ton of cleanup to do - piles and piles of junk, but removing that is easier than building all those buildings too (especially since a good deal of the junk is metal, and a scrap dealer would pay to haul it away).

Often, the condition of something is such that it does not add cash value, because it is not up to code, or is about to break down, or needs repairs to bring it up to someone else's idea of what it needs to be. But it can still be at least semi-functional while you work on replacing and repairing. That can be very valuable in getting your farm producing faster.

For that reason, I look very closely at "fixer-uppers", and make sure to assess the actual condition for myself, based on MY requirements, not on someone else's idea of what it needs to be.

 

[tortoise]

Wow, so much good stuff!

We're definitely fine on one income, and have been one-income for a year-and-a-half. We live on one income, the other is saved for this future property. When we move would have approx $1,000/month for fixing, animals, ???, saving for later. We have over $10K in emergency accounts and... not sure how much cash on hand. Enough. I don't mean to sound all braggy, but I am so proud of myself for paying off 12K in debt. And I'm all lovey about my fiance because he is really good with money.

Do home inspectors actually turn on all the light switches, taps, flush toilets, etc to make sure everything works?

Makes me think of my parents when they bought their dairy farm. It was a cheap run-down place. They cleaned out all these old feed bags shoved into the barn boards..... and in winter, they figured out why they were there (wind/drafts) and had to find more stuffing for the cracks.

 

[hwillm1977]

A property can be zoned agricultural but you can't have livestock? I had no idea that is possible.

Here it can be zoned agricultural, but you have to have a minimum of 49 acres to have any more than 10 'units' of livestock (1 cow is a unit, 15 chickens are a unit, 6 sheep are a unit... etc.. )

Check clearances from property lines for certain types of livestock... our friend bought 5 acres to start a boarding kennel for dogs on, but because of the shape of the lot there was nowhere she could build the kennel and have the proper clearances from property lines. Here for livestock barns it's 900 feet away from a property line shared with a residential property.

 

[hoosier]

A lot of good info here. Isn't this a great forum?

When we were looking for land, we picked up a soil survey for every county we were looking in. That info is now on disc in Indiana. It has info on all of the soil types and what it can support ie. info on what type of septic system will be required to meet code...

As far as the house, in addition to what has been mentioned, make sure the doorways are wide enough for a walker or wheel chair. My mom needed a walker temporarily, and the bathroom doorway was too narrrow. She had to go through sideways. Also, lever type instead of typical doorknobs are easier for arthritic hands.

 

[lorihadams]

A good inspector should do all those things and more. You should turn on the water and let it run, smell it to see if it smells "off", my grandparents turned down a house just because the well water smelled like sulfur.

He/she should also go under the house and examine the crawl space/foundation or the basement. He should also go in the attic to see if there is adequate insulation, ventilation, and proper wiring of all electric. Check your windows for drafts because you will either have to live with it or replace the windows later on. Make sure all the appliances work.

You don't need to be passive when purchasing a home...you need to look out for you cause once you sign on the dotted line any problems become YOUR responsibility. If you or an inspector finds anything wrong and you want to purchase the home anyway you can figure it in the purchase price or make them do any repairs before the contract is finalized.

It will cost money upfront, usually a few hundred dollars, for an inspector but if they find something catastrophic like mold or foundation issues then that money was worth it to save you from a "money pit" later.

If there are existing barns then you need to go through them and check the stability and the roofing and make a decision as to whether they are usable or will have to be replaced. Make sure you know what the building restrictions are before you buy something so that you don't get disappointed later. For example, my BIL next door wanted to put his future home (he currently lives over the garage) in a certain spot but when the neighbors had the adjoining land surveyed he found out that his property line didn't go back far enough for him to meet the building codes (has to be 40 feet from the property line) if he put his house where he originally planned. He now has to purchase more land or move the house he planned.

The important thing to remember is to keep your emotions in check. You can fall in love with a property and then find out that it just isn't what you thought. You have to detach yourself enough to be objective.

Sounds like you have the money situation under control and that's good! We were able to pay off all our debt and put $14,000 in the bank this year so far so I feel ya! It's something to be proud of!

 

[patandchickens]

To add to lwheelr's good advice about wells: when you find out what depth it is (and find out ACTUAL depth, not just shallow vs deep) then go research what aquifer layer it's tapping into. Some shallow aquifers are quite reliable whereas some deep ones can be unreliable or barely-potable, etc; the more you know about what water source you're tapping into, the better you can predict how your well will behave in future.

Be REAL careful about buying a property on the basis of "oh we will just have a new well dug". It is a cr*pshoot. (In some regions your ability to KNOW you'll hit potable water at some reasonable depth is pretty high, but in many places it is not, and drilling super-deep wells or drilling multiple places without hitting anything useful can put a HUGE dent in your reserve budget). Not saying don't do it, but don't be all cavalier about it like many people are and then discover that it is not at ALL like just connecting up to city waterlines

Do home inspectors actually turn on all the light switches, taps, flush toilets, etc to make sure everything works?

Ideally yes, but YOU should do those things YOURSELF first anyhow, and that is not what you want the home inspector for (even tho, as I say, he/she should do them). What you mainly want a GOOD home inspector for (and I have a sense that good home inspectors are about the same percentage of total home inspectors as with good farriers versus farriers in general, ahem ) is for things you CAN'T necessarily know yourself.

For instance what is the wiring made of and are there signs of it having been correctly done, is the master panel reasonably wired versus scary, when looking in basement or crawlspace at the major support systems of the house does it have anything worrisome, "those cracks in the cinderblock foundation, should we be worried about them?", going up in attic and onto roof to check things that you may not be motivated to go up there to check, etc.

This only applies if you have a GOOD home inspector though. They are not always easy to find, or to make sure they're good. Personal recommendation (from a satisfied homebuyer, NOT from a real estate agent or the inspector's wife's cousin) is the best way to find one IMO.

Makes me think of my parents when they bought their dairy farm. It was a cheap run-down place. They cleaned out all these old feed bags shoved into the barn boards..... and in winter, they figured out why they were there (wind/drafts) and had to find more stuffing for the cracks.

Yah When you move to a new place, I know it's really really really tempting to start fixing it up or making it your own, but it is often best to leave things the way they are (both indoors and landscapewise) for the first full year, unless there is something you simply HAVE to do. It is surprising how MANY surprises there can be.... oh, that perfect place for an orchard is flooded for two months every spring!, ah, the reason they have these mysterious pavers here is so that when the roof gutters overflow in a hard thunderstorm it doesn't dig pits in the ground and then flood the basement; all those pallets in the barn are for stacking your hay on; etc.

Good luck, have fun,

Pat