Interesting dairy farm-- definately not a homestead

SheriM

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I'm coming in late here, but I just have to get in on this fascinating discussion. I trained as a cultural anthropologist and am now a small scale farmer. It was, in fact, the development of agricuture that paved the way for specialized labor and the move away from each family producing its own food. Once crops were grown and livestock was managed on a large enough scale to produce a surplus, it allowed other people to develop their skills as weavers, potters, etc and trade their wares for food rather than producing their own food.

Jump ahead a few centuries and we have the industrial revolution, which led to even more people becoming wage earning employees rather than self-sustaining homesteaders. The companies employing those people got bigger and bigger as mechanization took over.

Take another quantum leap into the 21st century and you have mega-corporations like Microsoft, etc. that earn billions of dollars a year and employ huge numbers of people...people who are, in some cases, now centuries removed from the process of producing their own food. The concept is as foreign to many of them as computers would have been to their grandparents or great grandparents.

Like it or not, this is where we're at. I have to agree with FarmerChick. As preferable as it may be to have many more people producing their own food or at the very least buying from the small scale local farms, the trend toward the urban lifestyle that began back in the industrial revolution has rendered that impossible. Regardless of how beneficial it would be to the health of both the people and the planet, we are not likely to see a mass exodus from the cities in favor of a rural SS lifestyle any time soon and there has to be a way to feed those masses who have never set foot off the concrete.

Having said that, don't even get me started about businesses that don't truly support themselves. Here in Saskatchewan, a person must earn a minimum of $10,000 a year to be considered a "real" farm and I struggle darned hard each year to meet that arbitrary figure. Some years it take some very creative (but still legal) accounting to make it happen. And then I turn on the news and hear about the huge bail-out of mega-corps like General Motors and my blood starts to boil.

I listen to all the daitribe about the poor employees who are expected to take a pay cut from $70 an hour down to $40 or $50 per hour and I just have to give my head a shake. I work off farm to support my lifestyle and I'm lucky if I bring home a $500 pay cheque for two weeks work. Admittedly, I have chosen to limit the number of hours I work away from the farm because of the increasing care my husband is requiring, but good grief, if I was making $70 an hour, I could work 7 hours a week and collect my $500!

Okay, okay, I'm climbing down off my soapbox now. I just wanted to offer a few thoughts. I really didn't mean to turn this into a personal rant, really I didn't. :D
 

Puck-Puck

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Debate over? :) [furtively looks left and right before stepping forth].

I can see what both Frosting and FarmerChick are saying; but essentially I think they are taking positions from two points in time: FarmerChick, from where we are right now; and Frosting, from where we have been and to whence we would return. Between the two is the long road to getting there, which won't be the same road that brought us here; and the destination may not be the remembered ideal. I mistrust the way things are headed in the industrial model; and I think it will be interesting times for everyone, pavement-pounders and homesteaders alike, when the next big change inevitably happens, whether economic collapse, non-availability of petroleum products, environmental upheaval, political turmoil.... May or may not happen in our lifetimes. We cannot change others, but we can show them healthy alternatives. When the event happens that shakes them in their boots, I hope there will be more than enough sustainable models to serve as inspiration. The trouble is, events may also upset sustainable farming models.

In the meantime, plug away at perfecting what sits best with one's conscience!

Thank you for the debate: quite thought-provoking.
 

FarmerChick

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SheriM said:
I'm coming in late here, but I just have to get in on this fascinating discussion. I trained as a cultural anthropologist and am now a small scale farmer. It was, in fact, the development of agricuture that paved the way for specialized labor and the move away from each family producing its own food. Once crops were grown and livestock was managed on a large enough scale to produce a surplus, it allowed other people to develop their skills as weavers, potters, etc and trade their wares for food rather than producing their own food.

Jump ahead a few centuries and we have the industrial revolution, which led to even more people becoming wage earning employees rather than self-sustaining homesteaders. The companies employing those people got bigger and bigger as mechanization took over.

Take another quantum leap into the 21st century and you have mega-corporations like Microsoft, etc. that earn billions of dollars a year and employ huge numbers of people...people who are, in some cases, now centuries removed from the process of producing their own food. The concept is as foreign to many of them as computers would have been to their grandparents or great grandparents.

Like it or not, this is where we're at. I have to agree with FarmerChick. As preferable as it may be to have many more people producing their own food or at the very least buying from the small scale local farms, the trend toward the urban lifestyle that began back in the industrial revolution has rendered that impossible. Regardless of how beneficial it would be to the health of both the people and the planet, we are not likely to see a mass exodus from the cities in favor of a rural SS lifestyle any time soon and there has to be a way to feed those masses who have never set foot off the concrete.

Having said that, don't even get me started about businesses that don't truly support themselves. Here in Saskatchewan, a person must earn a minimum of $10,000 a year to be considered a "real" farm and I struggle darned hard each year to meet that arbitrary figure. Some years it take some very creative (but still legal) accounting to make it happen. And then I turn on the news and hear about the huge bail-out of mega-corps like General Motors and my blood starts to boil.

I listen to all the daitribe about the poor employees who are expected to take a pay cut from $70 an hour down to $40 or $50 per hour and I just have to give my head a shake. I work off farm to support my lifestyle and I'm lucky if I bring home a $500 pay cheque for two weeks work. Admittedly, I have chosen to limit the number of hours I work away from the farm because of the increasing care my husband is requiring, but good grief, if I was making $70 an hour, I could work 7 hours a week and collect my $500!

Okay, okay, I'm climbing down off my soapbox now. I just wanted to offer a few thoughts. I really didn't mean to turn this into a personal rant, really I didn't. :D
well thought post SheriM
I enjoyed reading it

and WOW on the $10K to be a"farm" where you are. That is alot!!! I hear your grief over it big time.
 

FarmerChick

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Puck-Puck said:
Debate over? :) [furtively looks left and right before stepping forth].

I can see what both Frosting and FarmerChick are saying; but essentially I think they are taking positions from two points in time: FarmerChick, from where we are right now; and Frosting, from where we have been and to whence we would return. Between the two is the long road to getting there, which won't be the same road that brought us here; and the destination may not be the remembered ideal. I mistrust the way things are headed in the industrial model; and I think it will be interesting times for everyone, pavement-pounders and homesteaders alike, when the next big change inevitably happens, whether economic collapse, non-availability of petroleum products, environmental upheaval, political turmoil.... May or may not happen in our lifetimes. We cannot change others, but we can show them healthy alternatives. When the event happens that shakes them in their boots, I hope there will be more than enough sustainable models to serve as inspiration. The trouble is, events may also upset sustainable farming models.

In the meantime, plug away at perfecting what sits best with one's conscience!

Thank you for the debate: quite thought-provoking.
good post PuckPuck
you are right---seeing it from diff points of view...where we were to where we are to "who knows" where we are heading.
 

Frosting

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FarmerChick said:
SheriM said:
I'm coming in late here, but I just have to get in on this fascinating discussion. I trained as a cultural anthropologist and am now a small scale farmer. It was, in fact, the development of agricuture that paved the way for specialized labor and the move away from each family producing its own food. Once crops were grown and livestock was managed on a large enough scale to produce a surplus, it allowed other people to develop their skills as weavers, potters, etc and trade their wares for food rather than producing their own food.

Jump ahead a few centuries and we have the industrial revolution, which led to even more people becoming wage earning employees rather than self-sustaining homesteaders. The companies employing those people got bigger and bigger as mechanization took over.

Take another quantum leap into the 21st century and you have mega-corporations like Microsoft, etc. that earn billions of dollars a year and employ huge numbers of people...people who are, in some cases, now centuries removed from the process of producing their own food. The concept is as foreign to many of them as computers would have been to their grandparents or great grandparents.

Like it or not, this is where we're at. I have to agree with FarmerChick. As preferable as it may be to have many more people producing their own food or at the very least buying from the small scale local farms, the trend toward the urban lifestyle that began back in the industrial revolution has rendered that impossible. Regardless of how beneficial it would be to the health of both the people and the planet, we are not likely to see a mass exodus from the cities in favor of a rural SS lifestyle any time soon and there has to be a way to feed those masses who have never set foot off the concrete.

Having said that, don't even get me started about businesses that don't truly support themselves. Here in Saskatchewan, a person must earn a minimum of $10,000 a year to be considered a "real" farm and I struggle darned hard each year to meet that arbitrary figure. Some years it take some very creative (but still legal) accounting to make it happen. And then I turn on the news and hear about the huge bail-out of mega-corps like General Motors and my blood starts to boil.

I listen to all the daitribe about the poor employees who are expected to take a pay cut from $70 an hour down to $40 or $50 per hour and I just have to give my head a shake. I work off farm to support my lifestyle and I'm lucky if I bring home a $500 pay cheque for two weeks work. Admittedly, I have chosen to limit the number of hours I work away from the farm because of the increasing care my husband is requiring, but good grief, if I was making $70 an hour, I could work 7 hours a week and collect my $500!

Okay, okay, I'm climbing down off my soapbox now. I just wanted to offer a few thoughts. I really didn't mean to turn this into a personal rant, really I didn't. :D
well thought post SheriM
I enjoyed reading it

and WOW on the $10K to be a"farm" where you are. That is alot!!! I hear your grief over it big time.
Is the $10K to be adjusted income or gross income? If gross income it's not a lot but, if adjusted income that is a bit trickier depending on size and I'm assuming your not talking a really big farm!
 

Frosting

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FarmerChick said:
Puck-Puck said:
Debate over? :) [furtively looks left and right before stepping forth].

I can see what both Frosting and FarmerChick are saying; but essentially I think they are taking positions from two points in time: FarmerChick, from where we are right now; and Frosting, from where we have been and to whence we would return. Between the two is the long road to getting there, which won't be the same road that brought us here; and the destination may not be the remembered ideal. I mistrust the way things are headed in the industrial model; and I think it will be interesting times for everyone, pavement-pounders and homesteaders alike, when the next big change inevitably happens, whether economic collapse, non-availability of petroleum products, environmental upheaval, political turmoil.... May or may not happen in our lifetimes. We cannot change others, but we can show them healthy alternatives. When the event happens that shakes them in their boots, I hope there will be more than enough sustainable models to serve as inspiration. The trouble is, events may also upset sustainable farming models.

In the meantime, plug away at perfecting what sits best with one's conscience!

Thank you for the debate: quite thought-provoking.
good post PuckPuck
you are right---seeing it from diff points of view...where we were to where we are to "who knows" where we are heading.
Yes, different points of view. :) Not uncommon when you have two different people talking about the same issue.
 

Frosting

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FarmerChick said:
1500 cows under a roof on 10 acres. a small farm can not do that (I mean the types of mom and pop like me, on limited funds etc)--- a small farm could not handle 1500 cows on 10 acres. It isn't doable. A large agri. corp. can do this by using row housing and automatic appliances and truck in tons and tons of feed from other large farms. It is a business that can be run efficiently IF the money is there to arrange this type of operation. 1500 cows on 10 acres outside los angeles would then be able to feed SOME of the population there. A small farm operation on 10 acres with some cows will never support the same as an agri. corp. can do with their technology at this point.
LOL It wouldn't be a small farm with 1500 cows on 10 acres even if it were a mom and pop type farm. :)
 

SheriM

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Frosting said:
Is the $10K to be adjusted income or gross income? If gross income it's not a lot but, if adjusted income that is a bit trickier depending on size and I'm assuming your not talking a really big farm!
The $10K is gross. If it was net, I wouldn't have a snowball's hope in Hades.
 

FarmerDenise

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I didn't read through all the posts on here, but want to mention that this farm was featured on "Dirty Jobs". Considering this is such a large operation, they seemed to take good care of the cows. They were extremely well organized, which I think is key to an operation like this functioning well and taking good care of the animals.
 

Blackbird

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I don't exactly agree with the statement that smaller dairies aren't being overthrown by larger. Up here people are selling out everywhich way. And its not just the smaller dairies, a corporation decided to pay farmers to kill off some 100,000+ cows a while back didn't they? I know Wells Fargo sold/killed off about half their stock. The prices are killing everyone.
 
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