patandchickens said:
KevsFarm said:
They can make a affordable hydro car, even a super efficient gas engine...I don't believe the tech is not out there to do it...Big oil calls the shots now, as they have for decades...IMHO...!
Oh absolutely, oil companies are *known for* buying up patents for alternative technologies just so they can sit on them. More-efficient gas engines etc.
However that does not mean there is a car that runs on
just water, out there, nor ever was
Note that there ARE reasonably affordable hydrogen fuel cell vehicles on the market, it's just that unless you live in one of a verrrrry small number of places, there are no *filling stations* thus you cannot *fuel* them. And I truly do NOT see the no-H2-filling-stations problem as being basically a big oil conspiracy... I mean, would you open one right now in your town with your money? No, b/c you would have zero customers and go bankrupt.
What it would take is for the gummint, which so many on this forum feel should not meddle in peoples' affairs ever
, to either subsidize the supply end of H2 for fuel cell cars, or to just do it itself. Let's all hold our breaths shall we. But the free market economy is NOT going to get there all on its own, it is an "alternate stable states" problem.
(Me, I am not btw convinced that hydrogen powered cars (be they via fuel cells or via actual combustion of hydrogen in the engine) are necessarily the way to go, anyhow. For one thing, while they will reduce the demand for *gasoline* they would radically increase the demand for *electricity*, which unless you are going to take all the oil you're now using to make gas for cars and instead use it to fuel power plants, is just going to make EXTRA demand for electric power plants. See other current threads vis a vis Fukushima. Although I could see where hydrogen powered cars might be *part* of a partial solution to our current straits)
Pat
As long as we can debate this in a harmonious and civil manner I wish to express my gratitude in keeping it that way to Patandchickens. Clearly she is adding a reasoned approach and is known to have a graduate degree which affords her excellent credibility. I appreciate her opinion and insight. I certainly hope she feels the same.
Despite the reasoned approach to "why this can't work" there are a significant number of folks who genuinely believe that it "can work". While the issues of "marketability and finance" make it nearly totally impossible/inconceivable to compete with the current market forces of fossil fuel, the truth may be somewhere in the middle or in the future.
No doubt, it takes significant energy to make energy from another source. I would be the hopefully one of the last to presume that we can violate the laws of thermodynamics...
1.) Everything interacts with everything and everything goes somewhere.
2) "There is no such thing as a free lunch"
3.) "You can't un-boil an egg."
Following are a number of websites which may or may NOT (depending on your personal belief system and knowledge of science) afford you some options to consider this topic of hydrogen power other than what the current "big industry" is telling us. And of course we know they would NEVER tell the American consumer anything that isn't 100% true... and yes, we know "Brutus IS an honorable man."
http://waterfuel.t35.com/
http://www.waterforfuel.com/
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/128967/water_as_fuel/
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Water_as_Fuel
http://www.waterfuelcell.org
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Running_Vehicles_on_Water
Directory: Hydrogen Hog by Future Energy Concepts, Inc. - feature page and official open source project page
Directory:Welton_Myers
Directory:Stanley_Meyer
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Freddys_Cell/ - official discussion list associated with the Freddy's Cell open source project.
Directory:Hydroxy_or_HHO_Injection_Systems
News:Hydroxy
Directory:Running Vehicles on Water
Directory:Water as Fuel
PowerPedia:Water as fuel
PowerPedia:Water gas
Directory:Hydrogen from Water
OS:Water Fuel Cell
Directory:Electrolysis
PowerPedia:Browns gas
Directory:Water-Powered Batteries
Directory:Water
More Stories by Sterling D. Allan
What IS important is that there are those people whose intellect (based on their scientific and engineering education) afford them the opportunity to rationally examine these questions rather than simply discount them. These backyard scientists are the guys who have changed our world on a number of occasions. This one is too revolutionary in scope because it challenges the current "establishment" of fossil fuel which we know controls the entire world right now. If you remember, Alexander Fleming had a cold and his nose dripped into a petri dish with bread mold in it...and then we got penicillin. That was one of the greatest additions to modern medicine ever.
We can look at the issues from another perspective. Why, if these options are so overwhelmingly either inaccurate (or preposterous) would the folks in big industry NOT want to pursue such an approach? We really do need to consider whether they think they could "MAKE A PROFIT" with such technology. If they can, it is clear in my mind that they WILL. The question then begs, WHEN will this happen? Perhaps what they are doing is researching it until they find a way to "market it" and thus
keep complete control over the energy industry before they allow it to become ubiquitous in society. We DO have to consider their motivation, don't we?
If we consider the current investment in the fossil fuel market, it is clear that to invent something or market something that would put that investment in the proverbial "toilet tank" one can only assume that the profit from the new technology would have to appear so overwhelmingly appealing that they would abandon their current approach. IMHO, that isn't going to happen until it becomes absolutely OBVIOUS that the fossil fuel supply has reached such a dangerously low inventory as to be approaching extinction before anyone is "going to change horses in the middle of the stream".
Having said that, we can at least see that no one in control of the fossil fuel industry is going to let that happen any time soon. I mean, c'mon here folks. Is big oil going to allow some little nobody inventor to market something that would completely negate their existence? Not likely. What then will happen? Well, once the patents (bought up by "whoever") expired, the opportunity to introduce such technological advancements will begin to appear on the scene.
Isn't that what we are currently seeing? My guess is that the answer again lies somewhere in the middle. If your "drug" patent expires and it is now able to be made "generic" wouldn't it seem probable that the same approach becomes somewhat viable in the fuel industry? What happened to the communication industry when the "monopoly laws" closed a number of major companies and split it into a huge number of them? Again, the market forces will have to resolve this question.
OK so these may seem like the ramblings of an old man but they at least cause one to think about the future in a more practical manner.
At least it does to me.
We still need to protect OUR interests in keeping our water sources free of the danger of nuclear waste contamination which is the reason for this entire string if I remember right.
I do again, apologize for the length but adequate discourse is often achieved by thorough and logical debate which I personally endorse and appreciate.
//BT//
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