Passing up nickels looking for a dollar.

[Wallybear]

When I was a kid I had a science teacher who told us how perpetual motion was impossible. Well as a rebellious kid I took it as a challenge. Of course it didn't take too long for me to understand. The thing it did do is create an interest in others who try and of course fail.

Then one day it hit me. All these people I see trying it or reading about it are stepping over nickels in search for a dollar. Many on the people who are chasing perpetual motion are only interested in 100%. The thing that they do not realize is that they are creating efficiency. If you can save 90% or only run using 10% of the energy to do the same thing then you have something.

Ok, so this also got me to thinking about other things that people who are into alternative energy tend to do. We look at things as an all or non. Why not use clean energy as a booster? In another thread I started about steam, it was mentioned that solar may not be enough to run steam and I realize they meant on a small home owner scale. But what about using solar as a booster. What would happen if we built a solar box to preheat the water so that less hard energy had to be used to create the steam. What if by preheating the water in a solar collector we could reduce the energy needed to create steam by 40%?


Are you starting to see where I am headed. Let's use this thread to add other ideas on how we can use alternative energy to boost systems. We may not obtain our goals of 100% energy efficiency but we might get a step or two closer and that money we save might buy a new solar panel or wind generator.

 

[Marianne]

Boy, I hear ya. I have always thought that all the little changes in your life will add up to big changes eventually. Of course, that's just a bit of the equation - everyone's location is different, so needs vary. I have enough sunshine for solar, and enough wind for a turbine (agh...hate the wind). I need heat and want some cooling. I just can't hang with 110 degree summers with no cooling at night.

Someone made the comment "First burn wood. Then figure out ways to burn less wood." Not everyone is able to do the woodburning thng, but there are other options for cheaper heat. We burn a lot of downed wood, unfortunately, our floors won't support a RMH's weight.

Although I don't have much to offer here, other than questions, I have always felt that you got your biggest bang for your buck with simple passive solar techniques for heating, like MEN heat grabber, etc. There's tons of simple instructions online that most anybody could build on the cheap. And any free heat is still free heat.

Does anyone here have experience with homemade VAWTS?

 

[Wifezilla]

The way things are going, those nickles are going to be worth more than a paper dollar anyway! LOL

All kidding aside, you are correct. Some people have this thought process that if something isn't perfect, it has no value. Solar isn't perfect heat source, but if you incorporate thermal mass (like a trombe wall) in to your home design, you reduce the need for gas or electric. You don't replace it, but I don't know a single person who would say "No no no! I do NOT want to save 50% on my heat bill!".

 

[Marianne]

No kidding.
After I was telling someone about passive solar, he actually looked at me like I was green and had horns, and said, 'well, it doesn't sound like it's worth much, not worth the work'.

And then there's the mindset of our friends, that it doesn't look normal. (now ...what???)

I'm always amazed at the people that complain the most about their electrical/water bills are the ones that won't make any changes in their habits or lifestyles.

/rant

Some time ago I was trying to figure out how to use steam/fresnel lens, anything, to make more usable 'something' for energy efficiency. I got shot down repeatedly (that was before I discovered forums and like minded people - yay) Unfortunately, I know just enough to be stupid, so any of you people that have tried things, please post! I'm interested in anything that can be adapted to a homeowner situation.

 

[lighthawk]

The way things are going, those nickles are going to be worth more than a paper dollar anyway! LOL

All kidding aside, you are correct. Some people have this thought process that if something isn't perfect, it has no value. Solar isn't perfect heat source, but if you incorporate thermal mass (like a trombe wall) in to your home design, you reduce the need for gas or electric. You don't replace it, but I don't know a single person who would say "No no no! I do NOT want to save 50% on my heat bill!".

I Know you "think" you are joking but seriously you might want to take a look at this.

http://www.survivalblog.com/2011/02/the_nitty_gritty_on_nickels.html

Your statement may not be far from coming true.

 

[lwheelr]

I have always felt that you got your biggest bang for your buck with simple passive solar techniques for heating, like MEN heat grabber, etc.

A "MEN heat grabber"?

Is that where your husband crawls in bed next to you on a cold night and tries to get warm?

 

[lwheelr]

I think one of the reasons people pass up partial power with alternative energy is the current prohibitive cost to obtain that power.

Solar panels and wind generators are fairly expensive. If you have to outlay $10k, and will only gain a benefit of $7k over 10 years, nobody is going to go for it. It just isn't worth it, and currently that is how it shapes up in many areas.

Tax Credits for alternative energy are a misleading thing too. Somehow people think they'll get the money back, and many do not understand how a tax credit actually works. It just reduces the amount of taxes you pay. This means for people on marginal incomes, Tax Credits are worthless - they only help for people who are paying fairly significant amounts.

So, while it is worthwhile to spend SOME to save nickels, it is never worth it to get the equation backward and end up spending dollars to save nickels. Ideally, you spend nickels to save dollars, or at least spend nickels to save more nickels.

For many people, that is the reality of alternative power options. If you can't build your own equipment, or do a significant portion of the labor, then the equations can be very unbalanced.

 

[Wifezilla]

I Know you "think" you are joking but seriously you might want to take a look at this.

http://www.survivalblog.com/2011/02/the ckels.html

Your statement may not be far from coming true.

Things are funnier when they ARE true....and yes...being unable to buy gold, I hoard nickels. For reals playa!

 

[Marianne]

That was interesting about the nickels.

And the MEN stands for Mother Earth News.. Your comment cracked me up, Laura.

I agree with you on the cost vs return angle of some projects. We buried tubing for wires from a concrete block building to our new home when we were doing the foundation, in hopes of doing wind/solar and using the room in the concrete block building to house components. Now, 5 years later, we just have a buried tube. :/

Initially I was willing to pay more than what our return would be, just from an eco standpoint. Now, thinking that we'll be moving in something like three years, my thoughts have changed.
At this point, I'm willing to take some steps for a reasonable return, even if it's just nickels. Heck, I'm willing to take steps just to see if it works! Appeals to the inner scientist in me...

I'm hoping that some inventive people will come across with ideas.
Supposedly there is a retired physicist 60 miles from here that has only personal property taxes and a cell phone bill. He just hasn't figured out a way to do away with those yet. Now that guy I'd like to talk to! Everyone who's heard of him says he has some pretty unique energy systems, no details and of course, no one knows his name or how to contact him. Erg.

 

[Wallybear]

I am on a different page then where this conversation has turned. I am an engineer by nature and am talking more about the physical applications than the cost of installing a pre-existing solution.

#1 Let's look at Mariane's idea of a fresnel lens and steam. It may not work the way you wanted, but if you can use the heat of a set up like that to reduce the amount of energy used at the boiler then you have something. BTW: there are large systems in the deserts that use this very system. It may not be feasible on a small scale, but the principle is sound.

#2 Cooling- here is a solution to help cool your house with minimal electricity. Dig trenches out to the edge of the property 4" wide and 5' deep. then bury a galvanized 3" pipe with the end at the edge of the property sticking up 12"-18". Screen and cap to protect from insects and rain. Run the pipes under the home and bring up into interior walls. Stub out the pipes into the rooms you want the cool air and have a cap that can be screwed on and off. In the ceiling you need to put a vent in to allow the hot air to rise and escape. This will allow the hot air up and out and draw cool air to be drawn in through the pipes. The cool of the earth will cool the air moving through the pipes. A fan can be installed in the vents to help in those times when you need extra cooling or air movement. The vents and fans can also be set up on thermostats.

#3 When it comes to electricity it is far cheaper to find ways of reducing the usage then it replace the electricity. Windows and Solar tubes that allow natural light in is one of the most cost effective ways of reducing electricity use. A water tank hooked to your wood stove for help heating water in the winter. 12v. power hooked to LED lights for closets and pantries or for reading lights is a great way to use solar. You do not use those very often and some of the Shed systems will be enough to handle the loads for those areas and they are relatively inexpensive.



Let's use this thread to solve problems or make things better. Bring your system on here and tell us about it and let's see if we can fix or improve it for the most cost effective way possible. I am a carpenter, millwright/fabricator and I am an Auto Cad operator and can help anyone who wants to build a system or just make improvements.