Where did we go wrong?

[BrookValley]

As a spin-off of Better Half's "What does self sufficient mean to you", I'd like to start a discussion on why "self-sufficient" (or, conserving, living simply, do-it-yourself, etc.) is a rarity and not the norm?

I'm truly interested in why it's alien to most to even think about being self-sufficient, or why it takes impending doom ($5 a gallon gas, anyone?) before most of us start paying attention. I don't intend for this to be a judgmental type of topic; obviously we're all here because interested in self-suffiency in some capacity, but as the other thread points out, everyone's version of this is different. And none of us are perfect. I mean, I did get coffee and a donut from Dunkin' this morning--hurl the tomato you grew yourself at me if you must . I'm not judging those of us who don't care to try to bake their own bread, grow a garden, or even care where their food comes from; I just want to understand why these kinds of things, things that seem to be common sense, everyday parts of life to me, are considered weird or freakish (words friends have used to describe me ) by most of society.

I titled this thread "Where did we go wrong" because I do believe that the gross wastefullness of society in general is a pretty dangerous path. And I can't wrap my brain around how we got here.

 

[punkin]

I think alot has to do with marketing the words "convenient", "fast" and "easy". How many times are we bombarded with those words? "Ready in 5 minutes or less", or "Takes all the work out of" It seems families are so rushed these days. Kids have ball practice 3 times a week or mom or dad is working late or we have to go here and be there. It's easier for them to open up 3 boxes or hit the drive thru. Sitting down at the dinner table is becoming a rarity. Forget about taking the extra time to hang out the laundry, plant your own veggies or make something from scratch. I guess that's life in the fast lane. Well, they can just pass me by. It's rewarding to slow down and get back to some of the basics. I'm working on that right now.

 

[Beekissed]

I think most Americans have a fat-cat sort of life and have grown used to putting out their hands and getting what they want. We live in an instant gratification society....observe the medical field.

Most of our illnesses can be cured or managed by a diet rich in green leafy vegetables, fresh fruit, legumes, nuts and good ol' water, combined with daily strenuous exercise. Most folks say, "Oh, I couldn't do without my meat, dairy, coffee, etc." and choose to pop a pill, then another pill to combat the side effects of that one, infinity. It seems to be very vogue to brag about one's illnesses now days. As if people who try to maintain their health by working at it are just "lucky",or don't know that they can take a pill and avoid all the struggle.

We like having nice things, we don't like doing manual labor, we feel its a waste of time to do anything that isn't easy and fast. Time to do what? Watch more TV? Shop?

We equate not having to toil with affluence and status. Material things with self worth.

We went wrong when we started to feel smug about our advances in medicine, science, manufacturing, technology. When we started viewing people who didn't jump on the technology bandwagon as ignorant, or backward.

I still get a tickle, whle reading on the BYC, how city folks and urbanites are so much more advanced in their poultry practices than the "old timers" who raised "scrub" flocks on their farms. What arrogance to dismiss centuries of practical knowledge while armed with modern science and technology!

I believe its that arrogance and pride, with little to base it on, that has brought us to this. When country people are viewed as "odd, ignorant, hippies, etc." because they don't depend on the fast, the easy, the so-called advanced ways of doing things....well, it is simply a false sense of pride and arrogance.

 

[patandchickens]

Well first, I am REALLY not convinced that a lot of the things we're talking about as 'self sufficiency' things are nearly as rare as it may be fashionable to pretend.

I think most of them (with the possible exception of using secondhand items, repurposing items, and using transportation other than personal cars) ARE fairly rare among people living in cities (especially reasonably affluent urban professionals), which is what the media tend to present to us as "the way the world is" both in the news and in TV dramas/sitcoms. [Think about it - how do you REALLY know what 'most people' across the whole wide country do? By reading newspapers and watching tv and being online and hearing what other people say about what *they've* gleaned from the paper and tv and computer...]

However I think there have always been a whole pretty-big number of people who've grown gardens, canned or frozen summer produce, dried their laundry on the line, saved energy, been frugal with money, avoided credit, sewn their own clothes, etcetera. I mean, I have lived a buncha different places over the years and I have *always* known a significant number of people like this. There probably *is* a real deficiency of them at the moment in the 20-30 age group but what's everyone else, chopped liver?

That said, to the extent that it has been less common (esp. in some age groups) in recent decades or generations (depending how you care to call it), I would suggest chalking it up largely to 3 factors:

-- it is normal and understandable human nature to enjoy ease and luxury and convenience and sensual pleasure, and not leap avidly towards opportunities for toil, sweat, physical discomfort, time spent in labor rather than relaxation, etc.

-- since social mobility was sort of invented, around the time of the industrial revolution, it has become a popular part of North American culture to expect that you should be able to 'do better than' your parents, who did better than their parents, etc etc etc. And the measure of this is the amount and type of consumer goods you have, and the amount of your leisure time, and white-collar-ness of one's job. Basically everyone seems to be aspiring to live like the Carnegies or DuPonts etc of the 1920s

-- because the industrial revolution made it Real Easy to make Lots O Stuff and at relatively cheap prices, it ushered in an era in which the game changed from 'let's make what people need, and on top of that give them some options to let them get rid of any surplus money that a few of them might have' to 'let's INVENT needs to fill, or if we come up with products that can't plausibly be sold as filling a practical need then let's sell them as filling a social or psychological need'. Thus was modern diversified manufacturing and Advertising From Hell born

The solution, to redirect things along a somewhat more sensible and sustainable path, is probably to raise our children to believe that manual labor (when needed) is a good and constructive and virtuous thing; that a good life is not measured in comparison to other peoples' but in comparison to whatever standards you've arrived at for yourself; that the last coupla generations have possibly lived at the easiest time EVER in North American history and it ain't necessarily going to continue or come back; and to IGNORE THE STORE WINDOWS, THE TV ADS AND WHAT 'EVERYONE ELSE' IS BUYING/WEARING/DRIVING/LIVING IN

It is of course easy to spin theories and just cuz they're plausible doesn't make them necessarily right, but fwiw this is mine


Pat

 

[FarmerChick]

Hi
Newbie here and this question caught my eye......alot is time and convenience.

There are great responses to this thread and I agree with them.

Remember also, it takes alot of families 2 incomes to survive now. To BUY conveniences like prepared foods, have higher bills do to cell phones, cable tv etc. --all bills my parents never had.

We PAY to live nowadays.

If people would back off "some must have conveniences" then they would realize they could live on less money and by doing things yourself, like gardening, etc. bills can be slashed lower and you get better quality for your time invested.

BUT if 2 are working, time is a premium and buying your stuff is easier than taking time to make it.

vicious little cycle isn't it?

I own a real working farm. Stay at home with a 3 year old and we sell at markets and such. Hubby Tony works a real job also, for benefits, but I love the farm life. Not something alot of people want to do cause of the hard work...that is true also. Living good means no hard work to alot of people, like gardening and such.

So it is wierd when someone "wonders" why I work so hard and kill myself...LOL...I love this life...HA HA

great post to think about.

Where is this society heading. Dependency to this level is not good. When we import so much...we get the good and the BAD. I don't think we could revert back to depending on ourselves much. Hmm..

 

[Beekissed]

vicious little cycle isn't it?

I've noticed that very thing. I have friends who insist they can't "survive" without two incomes. I gather the word survive has come to mean something totally different in today's world! :/ By survival, I think they mean "to stay at the status quo that everyone equates with success". If one has to have a second income to pay for the extra car, cell phone, babysitter, and the additional clothing, car insurance, food, and gas that comes with "working", isn't that kind of defeating the purpose? Not to mention the time away from making economical meals, smarter shopping, growing one's own food, etc. When we add up all the pros and cons, does it really pay to work, so we can afford to go to work?

I have raised 3 strapping boys on a very modest, single income. If I can do it and they just "can't", I'm wondering what the deciding factor is? My parents raised 9 kids on a single and very modest income. Why is it considered impossible to do so now? Yes, things are more expensive now, but when you consider that he never made more than $7 an hour, it brings it into perspective!

 

[patandchickens]

I have friends who insist they can't "survive" without two incomes. I gather the word survive has come to mean something totally different in today's world! :/ By survival, I think they mean "to stay at the status quo that everyone equates with success". If one has to have a second income to pay for the extra car, cell phone, babysitter, and the additional clothing, car insurance, food, and gas that comes with "working", isn't that kind of defeating the purpose?

Beekissed, I love all of your posts but this in particular is SO TRUE.

(To your list I'd add "and living in certain places", since even if living quite frugally and simply there are some places that you are just not likely to be able to afford to live on one modest income)

My sister is like that. I don't get it. We came from the same parents and upbringing and household, and actually lived very similar lives til about age 25 or so. How did we end up SO different?


Pat

 

[FarmerChick]

I have friends who insist they can't "survive" without two incomes.

Hi Beekisssed

your post is good!

yea it is the word survive. I don't own a cell phone yet my neighbor and I were chatting and she said her cell phone bills are killing her.....she got one for each teenager to stay in touch cause they all started driving (I understand her need for kid safety and such, but we kids never had one and lived--LOL)

So---when I hear "I need 2 incomes to survive" I truly wonder if they over bought on their house size, paying for "who knows what" extras in the household, too expensive of a car.....etc. etc.

What we need, and what we want differ so much. A car is needed for travel, but does it have to cost $36K?

With the increase in gas and such people are being more frugal and GREEN....LOL--things I always did, now others are feeling the pinch bad and they are jumping on the bandwagon.

No debt means living great to me! So many owe so much money out there....ugh...I knew very early cause Dad said, owing little money means you live good thru this life and it is so true!

Cash, spend cash, what is that nowadays...Plastic is the currency of choice for many.
whew..........not me..LOL

 

[enjoy the ride]

Over the years I've decided that the 20-60-20 prinicple applies. That 20% of people would not lie to save themselves, 20% can't stop lieing to saving themselves and everyone else falls in between.
The same thing seems to apply (not to the same people lol) about good judgement, or impulse control, determination,etc.
There are people who can't stop buying things, people who can't make themselves buy thing and most are sometimes impulsive and sometimes not. There must be a biological component to this.
When I was younger, I did find it hard not to accumulate things (a lot of thrift store stuff but still....) Now I seem to have reached a stage in life where accumulating is a burden and I'm de-accumulating.
With the infamous baby boom, there were huge amounts of people in the accumulating stage of life all at once and at the same time that we had fairly cheap imports, etc.
So it seems like the norm- I wonder if more people enter the de-accumulating phase of life, whether we will become somewhat less materialistic when considered enmass.
Anyway people tend to see (or in the case of TV, think they see) what others have and want these things too. So Moms drive kids to school in their SUVs on their way to work to pay for this stuff, give the kids cell phones because otherwise they wouldn't be in contact at all, get them the right clothes to fit in, games to eliminate boredom because no real work is needed from them, etc. There are so many people from Oprah to the local news telling them what is the good life. All that accomidating takes a lot of time so fast food becomes the norm, etc.

Well I guess I'm glad that I accumulated all those mason jars from thrift stores- I'm certainly using them now. I'm gong back to my earlier ways where if I didn't have something, I couldn't just go buy it, I had to make it. I guess for the satisfaction of it and the sense of some control it gives. I like knowing I can.

 

[Better Half]

why "self-sufficient" (or, conserving, living simply, do-it-yourself, etc.) is a rarity and not the norm?

I think its depends on where you live whether this is rare and what type of things people are able to do. Most cities around here ban compostables from the trash. You must compost it yourself or pay for a yard waste container. The cities encourage and in some cases provide composters, rain barrels and worm bins. Ive read that in some areas compost piles are banned.

The human to land ratio is such that new single family homes are being built on 3000sq ft lots. It seems a lot of people on this site are able to live on acreage but most people dont. I live in what is considered the country part of the nearest major city. Im on a quarter acre which I considered huge until I started reading other posts. My brother had a garden and chickens until he had to move to a town where the only houses available were zero lot line homes with a HOA that doesnt allow people to landscape their front yard. The HOA dues provide for landscapers.

If this was my first year growing a garden I would give up. There is risk involved in growing your own food where the store always has something to eat. The weather has been so rotten that Im not going to get much. After the work and expense of gardening with very little to show for it can get depressing.

Living simply seems to go in and out of style. 15 years or so ago the book Your money or your life came out and there was a big simplicity movement. Then it went out of style. Now its back. Seems to be a cyclical thing.