...

[Emerald]

Thanks for the giggle! Cuz I can just see most of the folks around here being just that way.

Oh and a great book to get if you can afford it is
"Seed To Seed" By Susan Ashworth..
Tells all about how to save your own seed and how to keep your heirlooms pure and how to store it safely. I have borrowed it many times and have most of the stuff that I grow memorized so that I know I can save my own seed safely.. In fact I do save seeds every year. Once you buy an heirloom and know how to save seed it is like having that seed forever, and then you can do trades for other folks "forever" seeds... a skill worth having in a SHTF world.

 

[Denim Deb]

Knowing how to do something is one thing, having the supplies to do it is another.

For instance, you may know how to reload your own shotgun shells, or mold your own bullets. But, do you know how to make gun powder? And, if you do know how to make it, do you have access to sulfur and potassium nitrate? Or, if you know how to weld, do you know how to make your own welding rods? Just something to think about.

 

[Marianne]

Knowing how to do something is one thing, having the supplies to do it is another.

For instance, you may know how to reload your own shotgun shells, or mold your own bullets. But, do you know how to make gun powder? And, if you do know how to make it, do you have access to sulfur and potassium nitrate? Or, if you know how to weld, do you know how to make your own welding rods? Just something to think about.

Good point, Deb! Whereas I have the supplies needed to make the rocket stove, passive solar, etc...when it comes to the VAWT...I don't have extra batteries to store power, other than from the vehicles. And when those shoot craps, there we are. And there are probably a couple other components that we'd need to buy, too.

And when my bit of ammo is gone, it's gone. I'd just be waving an empty gun at a rabbit. Maybe it'd have a heart attack and I'd still get it? I don't know...The neighbor behind us traps, but I know hiis wife doesn't know how to can food, so I'm sure they wouldn't have canning jars, much less the lids. I'm not sure she even knows how to cook (92 lbs and won't eat anything green). I probably could barter something there.

Maybe it would be more accurate to say that we'd be okay for a while, but most of us need to have plan B in mind, too. You sure gave me something to think about.

 

[patandchickens]

But, do you know how to make gun powder? And, if you do know how to make it, do you have access to sulfur and potassium nitrate? Or, if you know how to weld, do you know how to make your own welding rods?

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point here, but isn't that sort of the whole point of "the end of the world as we know it" scenarios that people (not really me, btw) are planning for, though?

You simply CANNOT make those things yourself, realistically. Not while doing everything else necessary to survive, anyhow. And in many cases, not even if you had nothing else to do at all, because they just require too many complex-and-technically-difficult or not-found-locally materials. Or for gunpowder, while with sufficient time and experimentation and a fortuitous supply of the right stuff (remembering that episode of the old Star Trek series here ) you could arrive at some semblance of sorta-gunpowder, it ain't gonna be something you can expect to use effectively in a firearm, not even a black-powder rifle.

Thus, one would need to rely on more-basic technologies that CAN be done by oneself or one's immediate group; and/or work out arrangements with other people to trade goods and share services.

(BTW, the heck with welding rods, whatcha gonna use as a *power source* for welding. Except when using the term "welding" in the very very broadest possible sense so that it includes heating things up in a forge and then hammering on 'em; but a usefully-hot forge is not an "oh I will throw it together in my spare time" project either. Note that even plumbing [soldering] is on my normal-natural-disaster list NOT the "back to stone age" list... )

Pat

 

[valmom]

A herd of feral teenagers. *Snort* Now that's an image!

I think about supplies to do what you need to do, too. That's one reason I like knowing how things are made from the basic material up. I know nothing about ammo, but I could chip a stone point if I could find anything but granite up here. Defense might be a problem for me!

 

[Dirk Chesterfield]

And in many cases, not even if you had nothing else to do at all, because they just require too many complex-and-technically-difficult or not-found-locally materials. Or for gunpowder, while with sufficient time and experimentation and a fortuitous supply of the right stuff (remembering that episode of the old Star Trek series here ) you could arrive at some semblance of sorta-gunpowder, it ain't gonna be something you can expect to use effectively in a firearm, not even a black-powder rifle.Pat

The one pivotal component of modern firearms that is almost impossible to safely make at home, even if you have the right ingredients, is the primers. They are hideously dangerous to make. Some who try lose a hand, finger or eye. Others go to the great beyond in a rather spectacular fashion.

Bullets aren't hard to make if you have a mold, lead and a camp fire. Lead melts at 621.5F. Tire weights make pretty nice bullets but you shouldn't fire them faster than 1000 ft/sec or they melt in the barrel.

Black powder isn't hard to make either. The hardest component to procure would be the sulfur. Everyone will have charcoal. Potassium nitrate can be made but it takes plenty of urine and night soil. You can make gunpowder without sulfur but it will cause the ignition temperature of the powder to increase roughly 100F, bad news for flintlocks and inconsequential for a percussion rifle.

 

[patandchickens]

Black powder isn't hard to make either. The hardest component to procure would be the sulfur. Everyone will have charcoal. Potassium nitrate can be made but it takes plenty of urine and night soil. You can make gunpowder without sulfur but it will cause the ignition temperature of the powder to increase roughly 100F, bad news for flintlocks and inconsequential for a percussion rifle.

My impression (from muzzle-loader-aficionado relatives) is that unless you have recourse to generations' worth of extensive in-person tutelage and know your local material sources reeeeallly well, it is not practical to make these things from scratch (as opposed to from drugstore-bought purified ingredients) for use in firearms, on account of getting too-unpredictable a product? Some quick googling seems to support this.

More-modern versions of gunpowder, smokeless types that work better than the original plain ol black powder version, are AFAIK both too-industrial-technology-requiring and too dangerous to be DIY.

I do expect that if commercial gunpowder ever came into short or nonexistant supply due to long-term SHTF events, people would fairly soon start producing it themselves in some fashion... but not individual people at home, rather there would likely be a very few folks who are already set up with the knowledge, experience and equipment, who would manufacture it for sale (including to those who take it to trade afar).


Pat, not even remotely a firearms geek herself and just passing along what relatives have said, so quite willing to stand corrected if you can demonstrate I'm wrong

 

[Wannabefree]

By "making my own weapons" I mean bow and arrow, and I already know how to shoot. I know which wood to use, the best way to string it etc. I studied indians extensively and learned a lot about how they survived off the very land I now reside on. No it's not modern, but it is great backup knowledge and skill in case you run out of bullets and can't make any yourself, or don't have the equipment. I have contingency plans for about everything. It's best to know how to make the things you'll need. Needing things and not knowing kinda stinks. It may not be elaborate, but it works.

 

[Icu4dzs]

OK so we pretty much agree that the "skills" we need are not necessarily how to start a fire because most of those issues are still well engrained in the minds of most of us. Mores the point that we will probably NOT have to take a small pack and a knife and "survive" off the land like they made us do in the Special Forces.

What seems to me to be the most likely scenario will entail using the "stuff" that is left behind as PatandChickens pointed out. We all know that much of any major "catastrophe" generally destroys people, not "stuff". It is that "stuff" that is left behind that will need to be "re-started" and put back into service.

Much of those things will be the source of preserving some basic forms of infrastructure primarily to give us FOOD, CLOTHING, SHELTER AND HEAT. The majority of those things are already in existance. That is the "stuff" that will be "LEFT BEHIND" . Go to any WalMart and look at the piles and piles of "STUFF". Mulitply that by all the WalMarts(and other businesses) in the country and you will find that there will be plenty of "STUFF" to be able to use and "survive" With a huge loss of population which is now housed somewhere, housing will still be available. Cars, trucks and all kinds of stuff will still be here. The question is "how do we use that stuff?"

It is not just the stuff that is important but the ability/knowledge to "use the stuff" that will be required. Suppose for instance that folks in a town that operate a huge hydroelectric plant are all killed. What you have left is the "stuff" to make electricity, but no one to operate it. So what will be important is to carefully preserve the knowledge of how to do things so that with some book learning, things can slowly return to some level of normalcy.

I am firmly convinced that even though I anticipate a serious and overwhelmingly catastrophic event (nuclear weapons comes to mind) that we can assume the true survival of a significant number of people. Since it is people that do the thinking and operate the equipment, what will happen is that we would "devolve" into communities where the "stuff" can be put back into service but on a smaller scale.

Food production and preservation however, will still be a primary issue because it is perishable. Saving seeds is of course at the top of the "critical needs" list. Saving bees is right up there with saving seeds (IMHO). We must consider that there will still be lots of cans and food stuffs left behind (as long as they are not contaminated by radiation or biological means) that will, if properly managed, keep us alive for the year we need until the next crops are able to be gathered in and preserved and stored.

Another issue is animal care and preservation. While I imagine most folks eat some meat, the production of that meat is still a necessary consideration for the "survival" scenario. If the cattle are not destroyed by the catastrophe, they could become "feral" such as the buffalo were but they would take a while to populate the country side.

Other animals as meat sources, along with milk will be necessary. Raising, and keeping those animals is going to be of significant importance in TSHTF scenario. So yes, we will need farmers to do hard work.

As PatandChickens points out, skills which use what we already have will be of paramount importance. I don't think we'll have to start making buffalo hide coats, but may take a while to find the looms that weave wool and cotton to make some decent clothing. While the chemistry of "polar fleece" might disappear, the knowledge of its composition will probably survive. If we have the materials then we can make it (assuming the folks exist who know how!) For now there is enough "clothing" in this country that no one will go without clothes they need till the ones they have are completely worn out or destroyed.

I am to some extent skeptical that we will need to make "bows and arrows" since there will be a lot of guns left behind here in the US. Currently, most homes have more than one so the odds are they have a few rounds to use as well. Making ammunition will become important but that infrastructure will probably still be around, too.

As I said, the enemy wants to destroy people, and that can happen, but they can't really destroy all that much "stuff" and in this country we have a lot of "stuff". Worry about the weapons left behind at the National Guard Armory's and the gun stores that already exist. Bows and arrows are NOT going to be an issue.

What we really need to "fear" is something one of the above poster's found funny...and that is "feral teenagers"! While that sounded funny at first, it is truly the biggest problem. Feral HUMANS will be the biggest problem. They will become wandering hoards of starving, uncontrolled and in many ways evil folks. They will be willing to steal and intimidate those who will be willing to work rather than work themselves. They will intimidate with violence. If you saw the movie "The Postman" you will understand what I am saying. A couple of other movies make the same point.

It is NOT the environment that we will have to fear, although that will be a challenge, but the people who will think that they will exploit those who they believe to be weaker because they aren't as likely to be willing to "kill others to get what they want" as will the "feral humans". Those are the folks who will be the greatest challenge to otherwise good people.

One woman stated here that she has no qualms about doing anything to survive. Just what exactly is SHE willing to do or NOT do? Is that mentality to be trusted? Is she willing to steal and kill to get what she thinks she needs or does she mean that she will do any hard work to survive? This question is NOT an easy one to answer and she is obviously NOT the only one who feels this way. I've heard some people say "heck I'm not going to store food, I'll just kill the ones that did and take that!" You can bet they don't know they will be the first ones to "have an accident" after I heard that!

This then brings the idea of "A common defense" to mind and one of the most important issues of the Constitution of the United STates. For this nation to NOT become some form of Feudal society with roaming bands of thugs and murderers, we will have to be willing to defend ourselves. That is where the rest of the world thinks we are weak. How quickly they forget (particularly those who have waged war against us) that we value our freedom to the extent that we are willing to give our lives to preserve it. "DON"T TREAD ON ME" is still true.

I apologize for the length of this and have a lot more to say, but I am going to stop here and not take up the entire page or two.

Believe me when I say, "This, we WILL defend!".
//BT//
Trim sends

 

[Marianne]

ICU, I respect your opinions, but I don't worry about the 'end times'. If it's going to be that bad, I hope the bomb drops right on my house so I don't have to worry about it all.

For me, defense is not the driving force. But to each, his own.

Last year when talk of escalating food prices was rampant, our
friends went out and bought a bunch of ammo to stockpile to defend their garden and chickens. I planted a bigger garden instead and learned what wild edibles grew in my area and took an online herbalism course (new skills for me).

I saw 'The Postman'. What I remember was that there were also those that worked together for the betterment of all concerned.