Okiemommy
Supermom
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This sounds like a fun neighborhood to be in!!
You guys have so much good information on this stuff, that I can't keep up with it all. I have soo much to learn
Bee~ Journal of then...
- Thread starter Beekissed
- Start date
You guys have so much good information on this stuff, that I can't keep up with it all. I have soo much to learn
Farmfresh
City Biddy
Our neighborhood is a really nice one, with folks taking long walks in the summer and sitting out on the front porch to wave at your neighbors. The sound of a hammer or saw usually brings a neighborly visit as well... AND they don't gripe about my chickens or my weird garden ways, but I would love to move still. The rest of the city is just that, a city!
Bee
You should try to GROW some alfalfa! Why not a legume lawn. Then you could simply dry your lawn clippings for the critters. My lawn used to be almost all dutch clover. I fed it to my rabbits when we had them. Now days I have a lot of ground ivy that is choking the clover out. My lawn really needs some work this year.
Bee
You should try to GROW some alfalfa! Why not a legume lawn. Then you could simply dry your lawn clippings for the critters. My lawn used to be almost all dutch clover. I fed it to my rabbits when we had them. Now days I have a lot of ground ivy that is choking the clover out. My lawn really needs some work this year.
- Thread starter
- #433
Beekissed
Mountain Sage
Well, this is why I'm getting sheep...so I won't have to overseed and try to grow a new species where it may not thrive. Salatin says if your pasture(insert yard/orchard) is grazed completely and then allowed to rest~as with pasture rotation~it will allow the beneficial, more nutritious perennials and annuals to grow better and suppress the weed varieties.
After I get this type of growth, I plan to "stockpile" a portion of the graze in my yard and orchard for hay/clover, cutting with a scythe and storing for winter. Then I will also stockpile some of it on the stem. I'm also going to scythe some of the neighboring field for storage, as the fellow just brushhogs all that wonderful grass that his cattle can't keep down! He's too old to put in the hay or run enough cattle to keep it down. I've offered to put some sheep, cattle, or horses on it and rent it from him, but folks are pretty stingey here. :/
I agree with Okie~FF, your neighborhood sounds wonderful!!! I've often thought, that when I get older and retired, that I will convert to plain dresses and aprons like our grandmother's wore....and dress up my sweet little mom the same way~as a selling point for my roadside biz!
After I get this type of growth, I plan to "stockpile" a portion of the graze in my yard and orchard for hay/clover, cutting with a scythe and storing for winter. Then I will also stockpile some of it on the stem. I'm also going to scythe some of the neighboring field for storage, as the fellow just brushhogs all that wonderful grass that his cattle can't keep down!
He's too old to put in the hay or run enough cattle to keep it down. I've offered to put some sheep, cattle, or horses on it and rent it from him, but folks are pretty stingey here. :/I agree with Okie~FF, your neighborhood sounds wonderful!!! I've often thought, that when I get older and retired, that I will convert to plain dresses and aprons like our grandmother's wore....and dress up my sweet little mom the same way~as a selling point for my roadside biz!
Quail_Antwerp
Cold is on the Right, Hot is on The Left
Hey, Bee, do you mind explaining this a bit more? It's a good thing that Sgt. Pepper likes to rummage in the goat poo??Beekissed said:Pepper is your friend!!! Encourage this, so you won't re-infest your goats!
Farmfresh
City Biddy
Bee
The plain dresses are actually quite comfortable as well. One neighbor was "the village blacksmith" in Missouri Town 1850, which is a reinactors village near by. He is all about that era in time and the ancient Vikings. The other neighbor and his whole family is involved in the Renaissance Festival near us. He was even "king of England for several years. We also love the Renaissance Festival. We are pass holders and dress for the fest. My son-in-law makes chain maille and usually is a knight or ranger, daughter is a faerie or some other thing. I am "a farmers wife" (who would have guessed that!)
We also have a covered wagon that gives historical tours driving down our street! You never know if you will be greeted by a homesteader (me), a frontiersman or a knight in shining armor around here!
So glad you mentioned the "standing hay" idea. So many people around here just don't understand that idea. On the Kansas range lands standing hay is what feeds the range cattle for a good portion of the winter in some cases.
One drawback to that is that grass when allowed to mature into standing hay loses a lot of nutritional value. This said, I believe if you used this early in the season and the animals are still fat from summer grass or when weather was being mild and they did not need the extra calories, you could save a lot of work that usually goes into haying a field then feeding the hay. This way you could feed the quality hay when the animals really need it most, like hard cold spells or late winter. Even though hay loses some nutrients while you hold it in a barn or under a tarp, it would still be higher than the standing hay.
I am all about the rotation grazing method that you describe. I have read a lot about it as well. I have had horses most of my life and spent a lot of time learning about improved pastures and I think your ideas will work great. I would still over seed that lawn. You do not have to use as much seed for it to take with the methods that you are describing. Just seed right after a rotation when the grass is shortest. If you are running pigs, cattle or horses you should also invest in a harrow. Running a harrow around right after a rotation will spread out any poo cakes allowing the sun to kill any larva, loosen up any thatch, and over all really help the pasture. Sheep and goats have such little poo it may not be as important. Another thing to consider is liming the pasture. Manure tends to make ground acidic and adding lime (or wood ash) will help keep the ground sweet and productive.
As far as "grass" finishing those beef cattle I read an interesting article about finishing cattle on standing corn. The idea works the same as the rotational grazing - using electric fence to divide into small pastures.
Plant the corn field in blocks all at the same time. When it comes time to finish the beef they go in on the young corn - eating until it is level. Then they are moved to the next block, which is by now more mature, and eat that down. Block by block the cattle are moved until they "finish" when the corn does. Eating the last corn block when the corn is nice and ripe, stalks and all! When that field is finished so are the beef - which are then loaded for slaughter.
It would take a lot of good planning and some initial hard work, but it sounds like it would work and corn IS a grass. This is supposed to help the field, due to the manure as well as the cattle. Have you ever heard about this before?
The plain dresses are actually quite comfortable as well. One neighbor was "the village blacksmith" in Missouri Town 1850, which is a reinactors village near by. He is all about that era in time and the ancient Vikings. The other neighbor and his whole family is involved in the Renaissance Festival near us. He was even "king of England for several years. We also love the Renaissance Festival. We are pass holders and dress for the fest. My son-in-law makes chain maille and usually is a knight or ranger, daughter is a faerie or some other thing. I am "a farmers wife" (who would have guessed that!)
We also have a covered wagon that gives historical tours driving down our street! You never know if you will be greeted by a homesteader (me), a frontiersman or a knight in shining armor around here!
So glad you mentioned the "standing hay" idea. So many people around here just don't understand that idea. On the Kansas range lands standing hay is what feeds the range cattle for a good portion of the winter in some cases.
One drawback to that is that grass when allowed to mature into standing hay loses a lot of nutritional value. This said, I believe if you used this early in the season and the animals are still fat from summer grass or when weather was being mild and they did not need the extra calories, you could save a lot of work that usually goes into haying a field then feeding the hay. This way you could feed the quality hay when the animals really need it most, like hard cold spells or late winter. Even though hay loses some nutrients while you hold it in a barn or under a tarp, it would still be higher than the standing hay.
I am all about the rotation grazing method that you describe. I have read a lot about it as well. I have had horses most of my life and spent a lot of time learning about improved pastures and I think your ideas will work great. I would still over seed that lawn. You do not have to use as much seed for it to take with the methods that you are describing. Just seed right after a rotation when the grass is shortest. If you are running pigs, cattle or horses you should also invest in a harrow. Running a harrow around right after a rotation will spread out any poo cakes allowing the sun to kill any larva, loosen up any thatch, and over all really help the pasture. Sheep and goats have such little poo it may not be as important. Another thing to consider is liming the pasture. Manure tends to make ground acidic and adding lime (or wood ash) will help keep the ground sweet and productive.
As far as "grass" finishing those beef cattle I read an interesting article about finishing cattle on standing corn. The idea works the same as the rotational grazing - using electric fence to divide into small pastures.
Plant the corn field in blocks all at the same time. When it comes time to finish the beef they go in on the young corn - eating until it is level. Then they are moved to the next block, which is by now more mature, and eat that down. Block by block the cattle are moved until they "finish" when the corn does. Eating the last corn block when the corn is nice and ripe, stalks and all! When that field is finished so are the beef - which are then loaded for slaughter.
It would take a lot of good planning and some initial hard work, but it sounds like it would work and corn IS a grass. This is supposed to help the field, due to the manure as well as the cattle. Have you ever heard about this before?
keljonma
Epicurean Goddess
Well, I don't know about goats, but we feed cayenne to the chicken flock.Beekissed said:Pepper is your friend!!! Encourage this, so you won't re-infest your goats!
Quail_Antwerp
Cold is on the Right, Hot is on The Left
HAHAHA Pepper is the name of my OEG Rooster HAHAHAkeljonma said:Well, I don't know about goats, but we feed cayenne to the chicken flock.Beekissed said:Pepper is your friend!!! Encourage this, so you won't re-infest your goats!
Farmfresh
City Biddy
We had a Ameraucana rooster named Sgt. Pepper for years as well!
Those chickens are looking for bugs in the poo. Best read... worm larva and fly larva the more they eat the better! Also they tend to spread out the clumps which will help the pasture. Encourage the digging!
Those chickens are looking for bugs in the poo. Best read... worm larva and fly larva the more they eat the better! Also they tend to spread out the clumps which will help the pasture. Encourage the digging!
- Thread starter
- #439
Beekissed
Mountain Sage
Quail, in nature, birds follow herbivores. They disperse droppings and eat larvae that, if left to develop, will crawl right up the grasses and become ingested again for another cycle. The birds also disperse the manure so that it can fertilize a wider area and not create what folks call "repugnance zones" around the feces~where the grass grows in a green clump that the herbivores avoid.
FF, technically corn is a grass. Nutritionally, its stalks only hold good nutrition in its sprouting stages, which is why deer will mow down your corn sprouts and leave the older corn alone until it develops seed heads. To use corn stalks for nutrition, most farmers will use it in sileage form, basically this means cutting it up and putting in a silo where it will ferment and create an alcohol/sugar value that will provide some kind of nutritive value and keeps the stalks from going to waste.
The problem with the corn seed heads is this...its concentrated sugar/starch and powers through an animal like a freight train, giving high yields of excess fat that will marble throughout the meat and around their organs. It is very corrosive to the intestines and the outer casing of the corn grain is undigestible~which is why we see "corn" in our own droppings after eating it~ and causes ulcerations on the intestinal walls of cattle. (Ever see feedlot cattle? Smeared and messy butts, tails dripping with feces~the digestive tract is trying to get rid of this caustic substance and high sugar diets cause liquid stool as well.) These ulcerations create a point of possible infection to the blood stream by the natural bacteria that is present in the bowel~which is why feedlot cattle have to have a maintenance dose of antibiotics and even lots of Pepto to survive this type of feeding.
As you can imagine, a high corn diet that is corrosive to the digestive tract is painful for the animal and it is considered quite normal for feedlot cattle to kick at their own stomachs in distress.
As for planting corn instead of using the space for hay? Well, traditionally, one must put some very high nitrogen fertilizer~usually liquid~on the ground, plow it and cause the normal soil structure to be destroyed and solarizing the beneficial nematodes and bacteria, denude it of any covering~thus allowing rain and wind to erode the top soil even further, and plant a grass that sucks nitrogen out of the soil like crazy, adding nothing back as the root system is so shallow and small. The rotting corn stalks~if allowed to remain in the field~haven't enough carbonaceous value to add back to the ground to fix nitrogen back into the soil, so one must continue to add more and more liquid nitrogen to repeat this crop growth for the next year~which can cause a nitrogen runoff into local waterways and kill the creatures that live there. Alot of corn is irrigated because the ground no longer can hold moisture without a covering, washing away topsoil, nutrients and polluting the water ways.
I really urge anyone who wants to utilize grasses for livestock to read Salatins Salad Bar Beef to get a good bead on how to develop pasture. It will open your eyes about overseeding your existing grasses, how using animals to improve your pasture really works~right down to the pugging, why he uses chickens in tractors in his pasture rotation, why he discourages harrowing(as most grass farmers do) and how he stores and uses his hay to the best advantage.
Its fascinating and well thought out over years of trial and error and it really opened my eyes to a new/old way of farming. Yeah, he's a little preachy and opinionated, but this doesn't take away from the fact that he could very well be a visionary in his methodology!
FF, technically corn is a grass. Nutritionally, its stalks only hold good nutrition in its sprouting stages, which is why deer will mow down your corn sprouts and leave the older corn alone until it develops seed heads. To use corn stalks for nutrition, most farmers will use it in sileage form, basically this means cutting it up and putting in a silo where it will ferment and create an alcohol/sugar value that will provide some kind of nutritive value and keeps the stalks from going to waste.
The problem with the corn seed heads is this...its concentrated sugar/starch and powers through an animal like a freight train, giving high yields of excess fat that will marble throughout the meat and around their organs. It is very corrosive to the intestines and the outer casing of the corn grain is undigestible~which is why we see "corn" in our own droppings after eating it~ and causes ulcerations on the intestinal walls of cattle. (Ever see feedlot cattle? Smeared and messy butts, tails dripping with feces~the digestive tract is trying to get rid of this caustic substance and high sugar diets cause liquid stool as well.) These ulcerations create a point of possible infection to the blood stream by the natural bacteria that is present in the bowel~which is why feedlot cattle have to have a maintenance dose of antibiotics and even lots of Pepto to survive this type of feeding.
As you can imagine, a high corn diet that is corrosive to the digestive tract is painful for the animal and it is considered quite normal for feedlot cattle to kick at their own stomachs in distress.
As for planting corn instead of using the space for hay? Well, traditionally, one must put some very high nitrogen fertilizer~usually liquid~on the ground, plow it and cause the normal soil structure to be destroyed and solarizing the beneficial nematodes and bacteria, denude it of any covering~thus allowing rain and wind to erode the top soil even further, and plant a grass that sucks nitrogen out of the soil like crazy, adding nothing back as the root system is so shallow and small. The rotting corn stalks~if allowed to remain in the field~haven't enough carbonaceous value to add back to the ground to fix nitrogen back into the soil, so one must continue to add more and more liquid nitrogen to repeat this crop growth for the next year~which can cause a nitrogen runoff into local waterways and kill the creatures that live there. Alot of corn is irrigated because the ground no longer can hold moisture without a covering, washing away topsoil, nutrients and polluting the water ways.
I really urge anyone who wants to utilize grasses for livestock to read Salatins Salad Bar Beef to get a good bead on how to develop pasture. It will open your eyes about overseeding your existing grasses, how using animals to improve your pasture really works~right down to the pugging, why he uses chickens in tractors in his pasture rotation, why he discourages harrowing(as most grass farmers do) and how he stores and uses his hay to the best advantage.
Its fascinating and well thought out over years of trial and error and it really opened my eyes to a new/old way of farming. Yeah, he's a little preachy and opinionated, but this doesn't take away from the fact that he could very well be a visionary in his methodology!
Quail_Antwerp
Cold is on the Right, Hot is on The Left
Ok well I guess I wanna put my chickerdoodles out in the pasture field with the goats then!
