I think that the couple in the article posted were hoarders; he had a high position where he was aware of at least some of what was coming during the war that was just starting, and took an "insider advantage" of loading up on resources. "Being prepared", to me, is filling my pantry with foods, etc. that are readily available to anyone at the time - I choose to stockpile them, others might not, but they have that choice. This couple was stockpiling, but it was already apparent that the general supplies would be getting low, therefore IMO they were hoarding. (And, come on, gumdrops, and caviar?)
Being prepared or HOARDING?
- Thread starter Wifezilla
- Start date
k0xxx
Mr. Sunshine
Who says being prepared means not living well?ORChick said:
I agree that this couple might be considered hoarders. However, I don't have a real problem with that. If the "hoarding" comes before there is a shortage, to me it is only preparation. Even if it were done with the idea of selling (profiteering) at a higher price once, or if a shortage does occur, I still don't have a problem with it. It is nothing more than is done in commodities futures trading daily. However, if there is a shortage going on at the time, then I can see where government might step in and limit purchases of staple items such as wheat/flour, sugar, etc.
It certainly wasn't that this couple had any prior knowledge of possible shortages, that the general public didn't. The next time there is a hurricane threatening, watch the rush of people on the news that are clearing out the shelves of bread, and batteries. After the storm has hit and these items are scarce, should they be penalized for buying them ahead of time?
If I continue stocking up with the idea of being able to feed my family for a year, should the economic crises continue to deepen, should my supplies be taken, if it does? Should my wife and I be put in jail? If someone has the resources and the fore site to prepare, at what point should they be penalized? It's all seems to be a matter of perspective and what is politically expedient.
Just my 2 cents.
Mark
DrakeMaiden
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SimplyForties -- it sounds like you have high grade biological weapons on your hands . . . maybe you should call in a hazmat team? I'm not sure what the proper disposal protocol would be for something like that. I would be afraid of contaminating ground water. 
I wonder if boiling it first would be better? 
If you could stand to.
I'm not sure what the proper disposal protocol would be for something like that. I would be afraid of contaminating ground water. I wonder if boiling it first would be better? If you could stand to.- Thread starter
- #24
Wifezilla
Low-Carb Queen - RIP: 1963-2021
They saw current political conditions, took their inheritance and invested it. THIS is a crime???
Apparently we need to keep an eye on India...
"Advisor to Sindh Chief Minister, Ms Sharmila Faruqui has advised Food Department to activate teams formed to control black-marketing and hoarding so as to ensure smooth sale of essential commodities at lower rates. She welcomed Special Ramazan Package presented by Sindh Chief Minister Syed Qaim Ali Shah and said that it will ensure sale of wheat flour at Rs10 per kg and provide significant relief to the people. The PPP government believes in serving people, she said in a statement.
The advisor also hailed the Flour Mills Association for assuring to implement the government decision and promising to sell the flour at Rs10 per kg across Sindh province. She said that the steps are also being taken to control the prices of other essential commodities. All possible efforts will be made to ensure sale of all essential commodities during Ramazan at lower rates, she maintained.
Sharmila said that Chief Secretary Sindh has already formed vigilance committees which will present daily reports about the price control. She directed Food Department to activate the teams formed by Sindh Chief Minister to stop black-marketing and hoarding.
She recommended that District Police Officers (DPOs) or SSPs be also included in the special teams. Sharmila also instructed district governments to prepare price lists of essential commodities, particularly edibles and ensure their display at shops and markets so that people could get relief."
http://research.scottrade.com/public/markets/news/news.asp?docKey=100-237c6642-1§ion=headlines
This doesn't have a date, but I have found other news articles from the last year out of India. Interesting....
Apparently we need to keep an eye on India...
"Advisor to Sindh Chief Minister, Ms Sharmila Faruqui has advised Food Department to activate teams formed to control black-marketing and hoarding so as to ensure smooth sale of essential commodities at lower rates. She welcomed Special Ramazan Package presented by Sindh Chief Minister Syed Qaim Ali Shah and said that it will ensure sale of wheat flour at Rs10 per kg and provide significant relief to the people. The PPP government believes in serving people, she said in a statement.
The advisor also hailed the Flour Mills Association for assuring to implement the government decision and promising to sell the flour at Rs10 per kg across Sindh province. She said that the steps are also being taken to control the prices of other essential commodities. All possible efforts will be made to ensure sale of all essential commodities during Ramazan at lower rates, she maintained.
Sharmila said that Chief Secretary Sindh has already formed vigilance committees which will present daily reports about the price control. She directed Food Department to activate the teams formed by Sindh Chief Minister to stop black-marketing and hoarding.
She recommended that District Police Officers (DPOs) or SSPs be also included in the special teams. Sharmila also instructed district governments to prepare price lists of essential commodities, particularly edibles and ensure their display at shops and markets so that people could get relief."
http://research.scottrade.com/public/markets/news/news.asp?docKey=100-237c6642-1§ion=headlines
This doesn't have a date, but I have found other news articles from the last year out of India. Interesting....
DrakeMaiden
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Oh, just to clarify my previous statement, the botulism toxin is what I would worry about getting in the ground water, and the toxin is supposed to break down when cooked for long enough. Maybe the best option is to boil it over a bonfire? Might be kind of fun. Or maybe just gross.
- Thread starter
- #26
patandchickens
Crazy Cat Lady
I guess I would be, marginally, willing to call caviar and gumdrops "investing", although I think it is a pretty rude and greedy KIND of investing if done going into a war or etc and by someone well-off financially to begin with.
However I think it is legitimate for society and governments to be concerned about people socking away disproportionate amounts of *staples*, however you want to define staples, WHEN (specifically) they are about to become problematically scarce for other people.
For instance if there is enough <whatever> currently available in the country to last each person for 30 days, I do not think that anyone should be buying up a 2 year supply of it, when there is not enough to go around for other folks.
(To me, that's a little different from having stored things away during a time of reasonable plenty, and still having them be available and usable when shortage arrives).
It is a delicate balance between sensible, taking-care-of-your-family preparation, versus greed (be it financial greed or paranoid hoarding). I don't think it's always a hard clear line between the two but I think there are definitely two ends of the spectrum and one of them is Not Nice.
Pat
However I think it is legitimate for society and governments to be concerned about people socking away disproportionate amounts of *staples*, however you want to define staples, WHEN (specifically) they are about to become problematically scarce for other people.
For instance if there is enough <whatever> currently available in the country to last each person for 30 days, I do not think that anyone should be buying up a 2 year supply of it, when there is not enough to go around for other folks.
(To me, that's a little different from having stored things away during a time of reasonable plenty, and still having them be available and usable when shortage arrives).
It is a delicate balance between sensible, taking-care-of-your-family preparation, versus greed (be it financial greed or paranoid hoarding). I don't think it's always a hard clear line between the two but I think there are definitely two ends of the spectrum and one of them is Not Nice.
Pat
DrakeMaiden
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LOL, Wifezilla. Yeah, flushing it would probably be ok, if you know that your septic is working and far enough from your well. Still, if the bacteria live in the soil . . . then you would need to think about how you use the soil in the area around the septic (which you should think about anyway).
OK, enough of the germophobia!
OK, enough of the germophobia!
- Thread starter
- #29
Wifezilla
Low-Carb Queen - RIP: 1963-2021
Yeah...back to my paranoia fest...LOL
OK...stories like this aren't helping me AT ALL....
"India, he said, had an ample stockpile of flu drug Tamiflu, and was importing more supplies and testing kits. But he warned against hoarders and blackmarketeers.
"Retail sale of Tamiflu is not allowed," he told reporters.
"This is a public health emergency, a crisis in the country, and we expect that citizens will cooperate with the government. Shortages of masks and hoarding of drugs will not be tolerated.""
http://www.reuters.com/article/asiaCrisis/idUSSP541420
"Last year, developing countries were gripped by the effects of soaring food and fuel prices, as oil reached a record $147 a barrel in July, prompting some to hoard food or impose price controls and higher prices fueled social unrest.
Okonjo-Iweala said while food prices have fallen this year from last year's peaks, prices of key staple foods, such as corn and rice, were still well above their 2005 level.
In addition, food price volatility is adding to uncertainty and making it difficult for farmers and consumers to plan.
She said the financial crisis had added to the problems as global credit strains have dried up trade financing, hampering countries' ability to trade.
"The financial crisis has just intensified the issue of the food crisis in some ways," Okonjo-Iweala, a former Nigerian finance minister, said.
The World Bank has warned that the combined effects of the food price crisis and the financial crisis will exact a heavy toll on the poor and increase the number of hungry and malnourished in the developing world. "
http://www.reuters.com/article/FoodandAgriculture09/idUSTRE52I62N20090319
"CARACAS (Reuters) - Venezuelan construction worker Gustavo Arteaga has no trouble finding jobs in this OPEC nation's booming economy, but on a recent Monday morning he skipped work as part of a more complicated search -- for milk.
The 37-year-old father-of-two has for months scrambled to find basic products like cooking oil, beef and milk, despite leftist President Hugo Chavez's social program that promises to provide low-cost groceries to the majority poor.
"It takes a miracle to find milk," said Arteaga, who spent two hours in line outside a store in the poor Caracas neighborhood of Eucaliptus. "Don't you see I'm here slaving away to see if I can get even one or two of those (containers)?"
Venezuelan consumers are increasingly facing periodic shortages of basic food products as the economy shows signs of overheating amid record revenues from an oil boom.
The shortages have increased skepticism of Chavez's economic policies and provided a political backdrop to campaigning this month for a referendum on a new constitution that he says is needed to make Venezuela a socialist state.
Businesses say price controls on staple foods are so low they discourage investment and force stores to sell at a loss.
The government says the problem is caused by growing demand by poor citizens who benefit from social programs, exaggerated media hype and food hoarding by unscrupulous businesses.
Supermarket shelves remain stocked with aged whiskey and imported wine, but for up to 25 percent of staple food products this year supplies have been irregular, according to public opinion and economic research group Datanalisis.
The group says Venezuelans waste several hours a week trawling for food. Retailers ration their supplies, and some even stamp customers' hands so they do not line up twice.
Friendships are won with a text message tip that a store has just put milk on the shelves.
CHAVEZ CONTROLS
Opposition comparisons to bare shelves in Chavez's ally Cuba are still greatly exaggerated, but even poor Venezuelans who back the anti-U.S. president complain of being stuck in long lines or having to visit several stores to get groceries.
"We've warned about this from the beginning -- all of these price controls in the long run end up producing shortages," said Ismael Perez of the industry group Conindustria.
Perez said businesses fear holding sufficient inventories due to an anti-hoarding law -- a problem highlighted by a seizure this month of 125 tonnes of powdered milk from Switzerland's Nestle, the world's largest food company.
Chavez remains widely popular after winning a landslide re-election last year and pollsters say he will win approval in a December referendum for a constitutional overhaul that will let him run for re-election indefinitely.
The former soldier this year nationalized swaths of the economy and stepped up enforcement of price controls the state decreed in 2003 but that businesses had largely ignored.
Now the combination of the controls and unprecedented consumer spending has left businesses like Cueva de Iria, a typical bakery that sells coffee, pastries and fresh-baked bread, struggling to find ingredients it needs.
"Everything relating to flour and sugar is a problem. We call our providers and they say they don't have any," manager Lino Alves said. "We only have enough milk to put in coffee."
TRAFFICKING POWDERED MILK
A black market has sprung up where informal vendors illegally peddle bags of sugar, beans and precious powdered milk -- for as much as double the regulated price.
The state's consumer protection agency, backed by military reserves, often shutters supermarkets for selling above the fixed price, but vendors offer their goods from makeshift stands in downtown Caracas in plain view of authorities.
"This is an insult, but I can't find it anywhere," said Jose Ferrer, paying nearly $12 for a can of powdered milk regulated at $6. "I have to buy it for my kids, there is no other way."
The economy grew by a record 10 percent in 2006, and millions of Venezuelans receive government stipends to participate in education and community development programs.
One of Chavez's most popular programs is a chain of subsidized supermarkets scattered across rural areas and in hillside slums that sells food at fixed prices unaffected by rampant inflation -- though it too has been hit by shortages.
"I like everything the president is doing, he's helping poor people," said Maria Pena, 48, a homemaker waiting in line for milk. "The only thing I do not like is waiting in line.""
http://www.reuters.com/article/inDepthNews/idUSN0642296020071112?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0
"Chouhan is emboldened by the Congress chief's praise for his measures against sugar hoarders and is now mulling the idea of starting a helpline for people to complain against hoarders and officials.
At a meeting of the Congress Working Committee (CWC) last week, Sonia Gandhi praised Chouhan for taking action against hoarders and hoped that Congress-ruled states would follow suit.
"Chouhan at a review meeting with officials of the food and civil supplies department late Saturday praised Sonia Gandhi's gesture, saying it was a sign of healthy politics. He also emphasised on a helpline, so that anyone could register his complaint related to the sugar crisis or its black marketing," an official said.
The chief minister, while speaking to reporters later, said that the toll free helpline number would help anyone who wants to register a complaint against traders or officials.
Meanwhile, having seized more than 45,000 quintals sugar in raids at 425 spots so far, the state government has claimed that the action helped in bringing down the retail price of sugar by almost Rs.3 per kg.
"Raids against hoarders have helped in easing panic among people who were buying sugar in advance to avoid the pinch of price hike," an official release stated.
Keeping in mind the festival season, especially the 10-day Ganeshotsav which began Sunday, Chouhan has instructed senior officials of the food and civil supplies department to continue the drive against hoarders and black-marketeers. He also instructed that there should be no delay in issuing licences to traders for sugar trading, said the release." http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/...=pWehHe7IsSU=&SEO=SS Chouhan, hoarders, kudos
OK...stories like this aren't helping me AT ALL....
"India, he said, had an ample stockpile of flu drug Tamiflu, and was importing more supplies and testing kits. But he warned against hoarders and blackmarketeers.
"Retail sale of Tamiflu is not allowed," he told reporters.
"This is a public health emergency, a crisis in the country, and we expect that citizens will cooperate with the government. Shortages of masks and hoarding of drugs will not be tolerated.""
http://www.reuters.com/article/asiaCrisis/idUSSP541420
"Last year, developing countries were gripped by the effects of soaring food and fuel prices, as oil reached a record $147 a barrel in July, prompting some to hoard food or impose price controls and higher prices fueled social unrest.
Okonjo-Iweala said while food prices have fallen this year from last year's peaks, prices of key staple foods, such as corn and rice, were still well above their 2005 level.
In addition, food price volatility is adding to uncertainty and making it difficult for farmers and consumers to plan.
She said the financial crisis had added to the problems as global credit strains have dried up trade financing, hampering countries' ability to trade.
"The financial crisis has just intensified the issue of the food crisis in some ways," Okonjo-Iweala, a former Nigerian finance minister, said.
The World Bank has warned that the combined effects of the food price crisis and the financial crisis will exact a heavy toll on the poor and increase the number of hungry and malnourished in the developing world. "
http://www.reuters.com/article/FoodandAgriculture09/idUSTRE52I62N20090319
"CARACAS (Reuters) - Venezuelan construction worker Gustavo Arteaga has no trouble finding jobs in this OPEC nation's booming economy, but on a recent Monday morning he skipped work as part of a more complicated search -- for milk.
The 37-year-old father-of-two has for months scrambled to find basic products like cooking oil, beef and milk, despite leftist President Hugo Chavez's social program that promises to provide low-cost groceries to the majority poor.
"It takes a miracle to find milk," said Arteaga, who spent two hours in line outside a store in the poor Caracas neighborhood of Eucaliptus. "Don't you see I'm here slaving away to see if I can get even one or two of those (containers)?"
Venezuelan consumers are increasingly facing periodic shortages of basic food products as the economy shows signs of overheating amid record revenues from an oil boom.
The shortages have increased skepticism of Chavez's economic policies and provided a political backdrop to campaigning this month for a referendum on a new constitution that he says is needed to make Venezuela a socialist state.
Businesses say price controls on staple foods are so low they discourage investment and force stores to sell at a loss.
The government says the problem is caused by growing demand by poor citizens who benefit from social programs, exaggerated media hype and food hoarding by unscrupulous businesses.
Supermarket shelves remain stocked with aged whiskey and imported wine, but for up to 25 percent of staple food products this year supplies have been irregular, according to public opinion and economic research group Datanalisis.
The group says Venezuelans waste several hours a week trawling for food. Retailers ration their supplies, and some even stamp customers' hands so they do not line up twice.
Friendships are won with a text message tip that a store has just put milk on the shelves.
CHAVEZ CONTROLS
Opposition comparisons to bare shelves in Chavez's ally Cuba are still greatly exaggerated, but even poor Venezuelans who back the anti-U.S. president complain of being stuck in long lines or having to visit several stores to get groceries.
"We've warned about this from the beginning -- all of these price controls in the long run end up producing shortages," said Ismael Perez of the industry group Conindustria.
Perez said businesses fear holding sufficient inventories due to an anti-hoarding law -- a problem highlighted by a seizure this month of 125 tonnes of powdered milk from Switzerland's Nestle, the world's largest food company.
Chavez remains widely popular after winning a landslide re-election last year and pollsters say he will win approval in a December referendum for a constitutional overhaul that will let him run for re-election indefinitely.
The former soldier this year nationalized swaths of the economy and stepped up enforcement of price controls the state decreed in 2003 but that businesses had largely ignored.
Now the combination of the controls and unprecedented consumer spending has left businesses like Cueva de Iria, a typical bakery that sells coffee, pastries and fresh-baked bread, struggling to find ingredients it needs.
"Everything relating to flour and sugar is a problem. We call our providers and they say they don't have any," manager Lino Alves said. "We only have enough milk to put in coffee."
TRAFFICKING POWDERED MILK
A black market has sprung up where informal vendors illegally peddle bags of sugar, beans and precious powdered milk -- for as much as double the regulated price.
The state's consumer protection agency, backed by military reserves, often shutters supermarkets for selling above the fixed price, but vendors offer their goods from makeshift stands in downtown Caracas in plain view of authorities.
"This is an insult, but I can't find it anywhere," said Jose Ferrer, paying nearly $12 for a can of powdered milk regulated at $6. "I have to buy it for my kids, there is no other way."
The economy grew by a record 10 percent in 2006, and millions of Venezuelans receive government stipends to participate in education and community development programs.
One of Chavez's most popular programs is a chain of subsidized supermarkets scattered across rural areas and in hillside slums that sells food at fixed prices unaffected by rampant inflation -- though it too has been hit by shortages.
"I like everything the president is doing, he's helping poor people," said Maria Pena, 48, a homemaker waiting in line for milk. "The only thing I do not like is waiting in line.""
http://www.reuters.com/article/inDepthNews/idUSN0642296020071112?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0
"Chouhan is emboldened by the Congress chief's praise for his measures against sugar hoarders and is now mulling the idea of starting a helpline for people to complain against hoarders and officials.
At a meeting of the Congress Working Committee (CWC) last week, Sonia Gandhi praised Chouhan for taking action against hoarders and hoped that Congress-ruled states would follow suit.
"Chouhan at a review meeting with officials of the food and civil supplies department late Saturday praised Sonia Gandhi's gesture, saying it was a sign of healthy politics. He also emphasised on a helpline, so that anyone could register his complaint related to the sugar crisis or its black marketing," an official said.
The chief minister, while speaking to reporters later, said that the toll free helpline number would help anyone who wants to register a complaint against traders or officials.
Meanwhile, having seized more than 45,000 quintals sugar in raids at 425 spots so far, the state government has claimed that the action helped in bringing down the retail price of sugar by almost Rs.3 per kg.
"Raids against hoarders have helped in easing panic among people who were buying sugar in advance to avoid the pinch of price hike," an official release stated.
Keeping in mind the festival season, especially the 10-day Ganeshotsav which began Sunday, Chouhan has instructed senior officials of the food and civil supplies department to continue the drive against hoarders and black-marketeers. He also instructed that there should be no delay in issuing licences to traders for sugar trading, said the release." http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/...=pWehHe7IsSU=&SEO=SS Chouhan, hoarders, kudos
keljonma
Epicurean Goddess
The WWI era was (obviously) such a fun time to be alive!
