Deja Vu all over again?

[andehens]

reinbeau rocks!!

 

[me&thegals]

]...because you don't want to see the obvious effort to disarm American citizens

Wow! Guess I missed this one. And here I was thinking the NRA was one of the most powerful lobbies ANYwhere!

I'll continue to 'feel strongly against the government' while they continue to eat away at my personal freedoms, and fight mightily to keep them. You can sit on the sidelines and ride whatever tide comes in.

I don't think supporting our current administration can fairly be described as "sitting on the sidelines and riding the tide." This entire thread is insulting to anybody who doesn't quite follow the same line of thinking as others. I mean, "sheeple" to refer to someone who doesn't believe the way another does. "Sitting on the sidelines?"

I would think someone concerned about the erosion of civil liberties would have been absolutely cowering in fear the last 8 years as liberties were trampled. It got to the point where I started paying more attention to the wording in the subject lines of political e-mails to my sister.

Let's not be so concerned about some liberties (guns) that we completely ignore others (right to be acccused, have representation, a fair trial).

And, let's not pretend that reasonable measures to protect people from the effects of guns--whose job, after all, IS to kill--are just one more step towards disarming the American people. Come on. I think if the NRA and rabid gun owners (I am NOT talking to all of you, just folks who talk about shooting up anybody who steps on their property or looks at them funny) would get a little more reasonable, a lot more Americans would feel more comfortable with the level of gun ownership in this country.

Ok--a bit off track here. But, one more disclaimer, I come from a gun-owning household, currently live in one and am surrounded by gun owners. Guns are only as safe as the person (or idiot) holding them.

 

[reinbeau]

I am me first - moderator second, and I take my moderator duties to be more of a facilitator. If you can't see past my title, I am truly sorry. Being a moderator doesn't mean I can't have opinions, as long as I express them respectfully, which I believe I am doing. Now can we stop obsessing over my title and position and return to discussing things respectfully and rationally?

 

[Big Daddy]

I am retiring from this thread. My viewpoints are not shared nor appreciated by the majority so there is no purpose in contributing. I don't think the original post was for the purpose of bashing our government. At least I feel comfortable now about saying what I want on line or on the phone. So I for one feel like I have regained some liberties.

 

[patandchickens]

It's not that I feel so strongly 'against the government', it's that the government in many ways continues to infringe on my individual rights.

The whole POINT of government is to infringe on peoples' individual rights. If everybody just did whatever they felt was their personal right, where would we be? To have order, certain of what people are convinced are legitimately their personal rights HAVE to be reined in.

The point of the Bill of Rights is to draw a boundary on how far the gov't is intended to be able to limit peoples' rights. This is well and good. However, the corollary to that is that certain other things, things which people would like to think of as their rights, *are* fair game for regulation.

It is the job of society to decide what rights they wish to have limited at any particular point in time (we decide that by who gets elected and what laws they implement/enforce). That's society *as a whole*, meaning that any particular person is always going to disagree with at least some of what the gummint is doing. That is not a problem, that is the way the system is supposed to work. Who was it that said something to the effect that democracy (or whatever you want to call the American governmental system, which is really what they were referring to AFAIK) is the worst system possible, with the exception of everything else which is even worse ;>

As far as rights that *are* listed in the Bill of Rights, unless you believe that the founding fathers (well, whoever drew up the Bill of Rights, I am embarrassed to say I forget exactly who all done it) were divinely and infallibly inspired by the one true God and that the Bill of Rights is as inarguable as the Bible, then you have to admit that they were just some guys doing the best that came to mind and acting according to the society and world that they lived in back then. That does not mean that it is never appropriate to take another look (or another, or another) at how the Bill of Rights fits in with TODAY's world.

It seems to be very hard for many people to accept that, as much as they are personally 1000% convinced of being right, people with opposing opinions are equally 1000% convinced of being right themselves, and often with roughly as good and reasonable a set of rationales.

Just because gummint isn't doing what you, personally, would like it to be doing does not mean the world is necessarily going to heck in a handbasket or that the system is necessarily broken.

Those who feel they could do better in Washington (or at the state or local level) ought to be out there running for office. At the very least you would get a better feel for why many things are done as they are.

JM$0.02 and I'm sure not agreed with by many here,

Pat

 

[On Our own]

Nicely said.

 

[On Our own]

Here's the link:


http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html



Each amendment is listed as is a link for the history of that amendment and why it came about. I am really fond of the 19th as my founding fathers did not grant me the right to vote and others eventually decided to grant me that one! While I saw that as a right being granted, many others at the time saw it as a right being removed! They thought the gov't should not take a man's right over his wife and children from him and grant her the right to a voice of her own......

 

[me&thegals]

As usual, Pat has completely nailed it! Way to put it, Pat!

 

[Beekissed]

If you truly feel that strongly against your government then why are you a citizen?

Because I was born here? I like living here. I can't afford to move from here.

It doesn't follow that, just because one doesn't approve of the government's overall program, that one is bashing the government and should move out. If so, all the people who express extreme displeasure with the "previous administration" would be considered government bashers as well and should pack their bags.

I think Ann's point of view has as much merit as those who still trust that the government has our best interests at heart. Some of us have the opinion that this is not so, some of you still feel that the people who run this country are doing their jobs with the people first and foremost in their efforts, some just do not care to discuss it either way.

Sufficient to say that the divided factions will both think the other is foolish and deluded in their views. Getting upset, offended or using language with negative connotations doesn't change the fact that one side feels the other is naive and complacent, and the other feels the opposite side is paranoid and fearmongering.

I think, on this forum, we should be able to agree to disagree without playing the "you offended me" card.

I'm the first one to call a spade a spade with regards to moderators here, I think everyone knows this.....but I didn't see one instance where Ann used her status to quell dissenting opinions.....merely the tone of those opinions.

 

[inchworm]

I don't entirely agree with Pat (though I think she is about the wisest person I e-know).

The Constitution outlines what the federal governement is and isn't allowed to do. All other situations are reserved for the states to decide. There is a much neglected ammendment called the 10th Amendment -- "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Consitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

What upsets a lot of people is when the federal government starts to micro-manage things that effect their everyday lives.


Inchworm