Egg recall - there's gold in them thar hen houses!

[me&thegals]

Sure there are bad backyarders, but a bad backyard chicken raiser can't poison hundreds of people at one time.

See, I think people trying to change the way the world eats need to do better. It's only slightly better for 1000s of backyard flocks to be infecting people with salmonella than for one huge farm to do so. Better only in the sense that it would probably affect less people. But also worse in that it would be harder to trace the problem and stop it.

That's why I was asking about backyard flocks and salmonella. Part of the reason I grow and raise all I do is to be self sufficient. But a larger part is that I believe it is a far better way to grow food. Most of that is based on freshness and taste, lack of chemicals, and how the soil is treated when I do it. But, actual, scientific evidence showing proven safety and other differences between various systems would be very, very helpful.

For example, we have had our eggs nutrition tested, and they score just as Mother Earth News says pastured eggs would. I can confidently tell that to all current and potential egg customers. But as far as salmonella? I have no idea. I can only anecdotally tell them we have been enjoying them safely for years...

 

[Wifezilla]

The fact that a hen can throw a salmonella bomb and then lay an egg that is fine makes testing impractical. All you can do is focus on the method. The factory farming method, even when done "ideally" is still as disaster waiting to happen. Confining large amounts of animals in a small space means more disease whether you are talking about chickens, pigs, cows or people.

Waste management is animal management. Having an appropriate level of animals in an available space allows nature to do its thing and break down waste in to harmless and valuable fertilizer. Factory farming means huge volume of waste either in with the animals or stored in lagoons. Concentrating waste means it isn't breaking down and your risk of disease and environmental contamination is sky high.

I live very close to my animals. My neighbors are very close by. I have to keep the number of animals I have and how their pen is maintained under tight control. I am accountable not just to my animals but to my neighborhood. The neighbors who visit and bring treats to my animals would not let me get away with mistreating my critters or letting waste pile up. Not that I would do that anyway, but my accountability is direct and immediate. CAFO systems don't have that level of accountability and often pollute with the blessing of local laws.

Raising animals in a more natural setting means healthier animals and a healthier food source. Whether you believe nature was designed or evolved, fighting against a system that works so well is not only bad for the animal's health and the environment causes nothing but problems. When given the option I will always choose the more natural method. Is that a 100% guarantee? No. But the odds are definitely in your favor.

P.S. I have seen up close and personal how a more natural setting effects animals because of my quail and ducks. In the case of my ducks, I have no disease issues. In the case of the quail, not only is the lack of disease a sign, seeing how their behavior went from nervous, flighty and aggressive when they were caged to mellow, playful and relaxed when they went in to a large pen on the ground tells me a natural setting is best for their health. They used to have broken feathers, 2 of my hens were bald from the roo mating them constantly, they fought, etc... Now there is NO fighting, the roo has other things to do (hunt bugs, dust bathe, lay in the sun and chill) so doesn't constantly mate the hens. The girls are no longer bald, they hardly even get spooked, and even run up to us when we come to the pen. My quail are now so comfortable, that one of my hens has even gone broody...something VERY unusual for coturnix quail.

 

[Wildsky]

OT: Awwwwwwwwwwwww a broody girl! She's so cute.!

 

[Wifezilla]

Not sure she is going to stick it out, but she is pretty intent on staying on that nest right now

 

[Mackay]

I don't have a flock yet but I have been thinking about how to keep them healthy.

I decided that when new birds enter the flock they will get this in their water for a while. It will get rid of any bacteria that does not belong there.

A natural life style and free ranging with good diet will maintain the normal flora in the gut and through out the body.

I give it to my dog periodically because he drinks from the irrigation canal and mud puddles and it has helped him quite a lot.

I have just written to the website to get dosages for chickens.
http://www.nzymes.com/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=117

this product is the same thing as MMS that I have been telling you about for a while. When I know the dosage for this product I can convert it to an MMS dosage.

 

[me&thegals]

Hey Wifezilla---You're preaching to the choir I totally "get" the natural system, and try my best to have my gardens and animals living in as natural a system as possible. I am personally convinced it is healthier and tastier.

But, can you prove that your eggs are less likely to have salmonella than those bought in a store? I am talking about science, not just a gut feeling. My gut feeling is great for me and my family, but I can't tell my customers that their eggs are safer than the store's, because I really don't know. I can tell them they are more nutrient dense, because that I DO know, as they have been tested.

Know what I mean? I just wouldn't feel right implying better safety unless I could prove it.

 

[Wifezilla]

Telling people your animals are raised in a manner that doesn't promote disease is not a gut feeling thing. It is a fact. If you don't think your eggs are safer, you shouldn't be selling them.

But since you mention gut feelings...my gut feels fine after eating my eggs...raw and cooked. How does the gut of those eating contaminated commercially-produced eggs feel? Not so good if the news is correct.

"So far, not one case of food-borne pathogens has been reported among the thousands of pastured poultry producers, many of whom have voluntarily had their birds analyzed.

Routinely, these home-dressed birds, which have not been treated with chlorine to disinfect them, show numbers far below industry comparisons. At Polyface, we even tested our manure and found that it contained no salmonella.

Pastured poultry farms exhibit trademark lush pastures and healthy chickens with deep-colored egg yolks and fat. As with any movement, some practitioners are excellent and others are charlatans. Knowing your product by putting as much attention on food sourcing as you do on planning your next vacation is the way to insure accountability.

The pastured poultry model can provide true ecological enhancement and nutritional superiority for you and your loved ones. Enjoy pastured poultry and eggs at your next opportunity-- it will be memorable."
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...gemGxk&sig=AHIEtbRGlebG2w7cm7EqZb9UZXYhAZ7gCg

There ya go! You can test the chicken's manure for salmonella.

And here is more (my google foo is strong today! HIGGGHHHYA!!!)
"Fecal droppings were collected from 31 farms from Wisconsin (nine farms from each production type) and the Southeast (North Carolina, Virginia, and South Carolina; five conventional and 10 pasture poultry farms) in a 1-yr period. The specimens were cultured for Salmonella and tested for resistance to 12 antimicrobials. A univariate analysis was conducted to determine the significant differences in prevalence and resistance. At the farm level, no significant difference in Salmonella prevalence was found on 33% pasture and 47% conventional poultry farms (P= 0.4928). On an individual specimen level, flocks reared conventionally had higher prevalence than in pasture (P < 0.0001). Of all the isolates found to have resistance, 80% were from the Southeast. Of all the pasture isolates tested, 5% (8 of 162) were resistant to ceftriaxone, which is higher than previously reported from any production setting. None of the isolates from conventional flocks showed resistance to ceftriaxone. Multidrug resistance (resistance to three or more classes of antimicrobials) was found in 69% of the isolates from conventional farms and 11% on pasture farms in the Southeast (P < 0.0001), with the predominant resistance type of AmCSSuTeAx (ampicillin, chloramphenicol, streptomycin, sulfasoxazole, tetracycline, amoxicillin/clavulanic acid; 62%). About 5% of the pasture isolates from the Southeast showed the AmAxCFCRO (ampicillin, amoxicillin/clavulanic acid, cephalothin, ceftriaxone) multidrug resistance pattern. None of the isolates from Wisconsin were found to be multidrug resistant."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17461275

And here is a nice chart showing some important differences between commercial and pasture raised poultry...
http://gloryranchonline.com/PoultrySales.aspx

 

[me&thegals]

Telling people your animals are raised in a manner that doesn't promote disease is not a gut feeling thing. It is a fact. If you don't think your eggs are safer, you shouldn't be selling them.

I do think my eggs are safer, but I don't know it. Come on, I think you get my point. Can you PROVE your eggs are safer? Unless you are testing for salmonella, you cannot.

Regarding the studies, Polyface is not unbiased. Regarding the second one (WI--yay!), salmonella is much more prevalent in the Northeast. I would rather see a pasture-to-factory study there. And the last one, again Polyface based and totally biased.

I am truly not trying to argue here, just asking if anyone has actual, real, scientific studies showing that home-raised, pastured chickens are free from salmonella, or at least much less prevalent.

 

[me&thegals]

But since you mention gut feelings...my gut feels fine after eating my eggs...raw and cooked. How does the gut of those eating contaminated commercially-produced eggs feel? Not so good if the news is correct.

Come on, seriously? I ate factory eggs my entire life until 3 years ago without any salmonella poisoning. I still would much rather have mine. And do you actually believe that salmonella only arose as factory eggs arose? I don't know, but I doubt it. It was probably originally in small backyard flocks.

"So far, not one case of food-borne pathogens has been reported among the thousands of pastured poultry producers, many of whom have voluntarily had their birds analyzed.

I would guess that is at least in part due to scale. I definitely think backyard birds are healthier, but you would need an apples-to-apples study to actually prove that.


Everyone, I BELIEVE in all of the SS, backyard, organic stuff. I make part of my living by it. All I am saying is that "believing" is not good enough. People used to believe the world was flat. You have to be able to PROVE it to base your sales on it, or at least let people know that "some people believe backyard eggs to be safer," etc.

 

[Wifezilla]

So call your extension office and test the manure. Simple.