Goats - Horns

[Soybean]

I want to have goats, but everywhere I look, they talk about de-horning the goats. Is it possible to safely keep goats and not have them de-horned? The whole process of de-horning looks painful and almost cruel to me. I have seen people keep goats with horns before but I have not talked to them.

My friend's parents live down in NC with goats. My friend told me "No, they need to be de-horned because they will kill each other. Especially females who will puncture each others utters. My little boy goat killed himself because he got his horn stuck in the feeder and he was strangled in the feeder. If you keep goats you have to de-horn them." My thought on the little goat killing himself in the feeder is that maybe if they were using a different feeder, he would not have gotten stuck in the first place. Also, if a goat naturally has horns, and wild goats live with horns, then why can't goats kept on a farm keep their horns. I guess its like de-clawing a cat. I don't believe in de-clawing the cat. If you are going to bring an animal into your life, you have to be willing to deal with the animal's natural behaviors.

Any thoughts. I really don't want to de-horn but I want to know if its possible to keep goats without de-horning them.

 

[patandchickens]

<disclaimer: haven't had my own goats, just been around other peoples'>

Sure it is. There are risks to horns, though - mainly goats hurting each other or people, and getting fatally stuck in fences etc. Remember that wild goats NEED horns for some degree of predator defence and for the males to argue about who gets to mate whom, and there aren't usually lots of woven wire fences and so forth in nature, and Mother Nature is willing to accept a higher rate of accidental deaths than some goat owners are.

The people whose goat herd I had the most experience with -- they mostly had Toggenburgs -- were against it, b/c of how the kids scream when being disbudded. (Which is really kinda different than dehorning per se - normally goats are disbudded as very young kids NOT dehorned as adults which is much riskier). I have met a couple vets who won't, personally, do disbudding, for that reason -- too stressful for the person.

OTOH the aforementioned folks with Toggenbergs did lose a goat getting stuck by the horns in something at one point; and I've seen recently disbudded kids seem pretty happy and unconcerned, and heard of some pretty gruesome injuries and deaths that occurrred only because of horns... so I really dunno how I feel about it, personally.

I believe some goats are polled (born hornless), although there are fertility issues related with that gene.

So I think you will find strong opinions in both directions, and everything in between, if you survey goat owners. A lot probably depends on how, exactly, you're going to be keeping the goats (facilities, what kind of goats, doing what with them, etc)

Good luck,

Pat, who would love to have goats but really can't justify it on the basis of anything other than another pet we can't afford right now

 

[Quail_Antwerp]

We have 2 goats, and Elroy still has his horns. We prefer ours to have horns as we have him for predator deterant (coyotes) and he is better able to defend against them if he has his horns!

 

[Soybean]

Well when I meant de-horning, disbudding was also included in that umbrella. I think any animal that screams while a body part is getting cut/burned off is in extreme pain and I can't inflict that upon another creature like that. I'm not sure I would be able to, unless the animal was put under and was not aware of the procedure.

I would have goats purely as a pet. I would have no use for dairy other than we occasionally require a little yogurt for my sugar glider but we are going to research her diet and see if there is an easier way of mixing up her food without having to use store bought ingredients.

 

[annmarie]

I raised goats when I was younger (much younger!) and all of them were disbudded as kids. I was lucky because I grew up on a dairy farm (cows) and it was a regular duty of my father to disbud the calves, so he didnt think twice about taking care of disbudding my kids, and I didnt have to think about it. Yes, they scream, of course its painful. And all our baby calves screamed too. I hate animal suffering of any kind so I understand your reluctance. But then when you really think about it, we brand cows and horses, dock dogs tails, clip their ears, pierce childrens ears, tattoo our bodies, declaw cats, so I guess disbudding falls into that list of barbaric acts that has its reasons for existing. My goats were show goats so disbudding was necessary. And like a human kid that gets its ears pierced, a goat kid will be frolicking about like nothing ever happened a short time later. (Unless that kid is like me! Getting my ears pierced was akin to torture, that took me days to recover from!)

 

[Soybean]

I don't like any animal suffering. I don't like docking or cropping of dogs, I don't like declawing of cats, and I don't really agree with branding either. I would like any animal I keep's life to be as painless as possible. Is it possible to house goats together and not have them injure each other?

I don't agree with causing an animal harm unless it is absolutely necessary. I am a vegetarian and about 70% of the reasoning behind that is because of the mistreatment of animals. I want to have cows and goats, though, but not as dairy providers. Just as pets really. So I want the keeping of these animals to be humane and painless.

 

[patandchickens]

There just *is* a greater rate of injuries. It's not like they will all kill each other right away, but it is not quite the same as with hornless goats either. You would have to decide whether that is acceptible to you.

If you just want Fun Goats, why not consider something polled (born hornless)? That way, no dilemma for you I believe that if you want to breed them you have to be careful of some genetic issues (if memory serves, breeding polled x polled gives you a higher rate of hermaphrodite offspring), but I don't think it's an insurmountable problem, and of course if you don't want to get into breeding it's not an issue at all.

JMO, good luck and have fun,

Pat

 

[annmarie]

I don't like any animal suffering. I don't like docking or cropping of dogs, I don't like declawing of cats, and I don't really agree with branding either. I would like any animal I keep's life to be as painless as possible. Is it possible to house goats together and not have them injure each other?

I don't agree with causing an animal harm unless it is absolutely necessary. I am a vegetarian and about 70% of the reasoning behind that is because of the mistreatment of animals. I want to have cows and goats, though, but not as dairy providers. Just as pets really. So I want the keeping of these animals to be humane and painless.

Believe me, I know exactly where youre coming from, Im a vegetarian too, have been since I was 12! It certainly isnt necessary to disbud, and if you only keep 2 goats, it probably wont be a big problem, just expect to be saying ouch a lot more when youre working around them! I had a friend with a horned goat and even though it wasnt trying to hurt me, I had a really hard time not hurting myself on those darn horns one way or another. Having disbudded goats make them much more dog like, theyre easy to hug and play with! I will say though, that I definitely dont recommend dehorning unless its absolutely necessary. Disbud when theyre about a week old or forget about it, and hope that their horns grow in normally. Occasionally the horns will grow wrong, and curl back in towards their skull, and then of course, youre stuck with dehorning.

 

[ldburton]

We've immunized our human kids for years "for their own good" and it was easier to disbud the goat kids and give them a little love and warm bottle when they were done. You will find both camps with this, each adamant of their own stand.

 

[enjoy the ride]

It's true that being disbudded is painful- I have repeatedly asked the vet why they can't do freezing it off or a local. I think they can but my vet's are not willing to do that because no authority ever said that it was proper procedure. There is some risk with goats with anesthesia.
I hate horn- they have given me black eyes and other misc brusises. They can cause injury to each other because they will take to serious butting at each other.
As far as I have ever seen, having horns is not protection from preditors, however nice that sounds- goats use their horns to establish dominance with each other- with a preditor, they turn tail and run. I have never seen a goat face a preditor, much less try to defend thewmselves.
But I don't disbud kids that are going off for meat- only the does I intend to keep long term. I just feel that the pain they have is only justified by a long, more trouble free life.
But I have two boys right now with horns-and just yesterday I had to free one who got his head stuck through a side piece on a stockade gate and couldn't get out- if I had not been there eventually he would have collapsed and hung himself. I have 2x4 woven wire fencing and have plugged up any hole I could find but they both have needed saving more than one. Especially while they are growing they don't seem to realize that they can no longer fit through what they could yesterday. And one would think if they can get through, you can get them out- not aways.
Then there are the lovely stories about goats putting there heads through the fence and being unable to get them back through- where they stay till a dog came and ate their head off.
Also the older boy has developed a nice little habit of bending his head and poking me with the point of his horn- bad boy.
I feel that if you can provide safe fencing and no crowding at feeding time, you can more safely have horned goats ONCE their horns have gorn big enough to keep them from sticking their heads through anything they might find. If they are small horned like pygmy or nigerian does, this may never happen.
Also horns can get broken off during head butting- that is really bloody and painful for the goat.
So I wouldn't criticize anyone for disbudding - there are valid reasons for this- you take your choice and do the best for the goat. And deal with your choice when something bad happens either way.