How many have actually made the change?

[Icu4dzs]

Trim: Not that this thread has come to an end or anthing, but...

But what? Are you trying to say something by NOT saying something? Is there a purpose to your question? What is it about anyone who would write an essay and ask questions that look deeply into our way of thinking that disturbs you? I see that you don't necessarily share any "way of thinking" because it doesn't appear to be published in any specific form. It may be that the reason for that is because no one has actually formulated a specific philosophy or "platform" as such, which defines what we think and who we are. Perhaps we are not like the political parties who "state their platform" and then do whatever they want? What I do see is that there is some consensus in some areas but the variety of backgrounds and purposes are as varied as the number of stars in the heavens.

Have you concluded anything at this point? You posted with some thoughts and an inquiry or two. Did you get the kind of responses you'd hoped for? and what have the replies, to date, added up to (for you)?

I have read the responses to the essay and not a one of them is exactly like any of the others. When we post here, we put our own ideas on the forum. Obviously there are those who enjoy sharing their ideas and thinking here and some who just like to find something they can criticize or make a veiled attempt to criticize by asking rhetorical question.

There is something to be learned by everything we do and this is no exception. Regardless of our backgrounds, the concepts of why we want to be less dependent on the "greater whole of current society" don't vary all that much. We are living in a "just in time" philosophy social structure which is caused by manufacturing changing things so fast that no one wants to stock parts or inventory. They have been acculturated to think that there is an unlimited supply of everything including fuel to transport everything we get in society rather than lay aside something so that any change in circumstances would not impact us in any significant way.

I took all the money I had saved throughout my life as a doc that was left after the stock market stole what I had put in there rather than what I "made" as a result of an increase in value. In other words, I used my own money to save it by investing it in my country's economic system and got my butt thrashed severely and robbed blind. I took what I had left saved and invested it in real estate. I did it where other folks aren't willing to go because there aren't any Walmarts out here and there aren't any chain stores and the closest big city is 70 miles away. I bought a farm which to me is the best insurance against any form of economic collapse, which my parents endured in 1929. To think that it can't happen again is foolhardy. EVeryone here refers to a SHTF scenario because they KNOW it CAN happen.

How we have done it varies markedly. Some have inherited their environment from their parents. Some have bought a place and improved it. Some have started with nothing but the end result is that something drives these people quite differently than the folks who are chasing the "new car, big house, fancy boat and night club lifestyle" We have something inside us that causes us to be different INTENTIONALLY. What that motivation is tends to be what I am attempting to learn. Why folks think this is something they either want or NEED to do is the motivation I want to learn to see how (if at all) it differs from my own motivation. More and more I am learning that folks are concerned about the economic condition of our country and they are concerned that despite the fact that they don't have a lot of spendable cash, they want to be certain that their families are fed, clothed and educated to the point of adulthood where they can take over for themselves, without starving or resorting to some kind of aberrant behavior to eat every day be that steal or whatever.

As I said, we live in pivotal times. How we respond to the demands of pivotal times will show us what we can expect for the future of our nation and the world. You live in Canada and for what it is worth, the differences are too minute to be consequential. We have more similarities than differences. So the ideologies are probably more alike than disparate.

I will address this further as I re-read more in depth what folks have written. What I have learned is that no two of us are exactly alike and that is why they make Chocolate, Vanilla and Strawberry!

So the question I ask you is 'What did YOU learn from this? What do you think of the questions I asked? How has it helped you to formulate your own SS philosophy in order to be convinced you are doing the right thing for your self, your family, your environment, your nation and your world? We all know that being SS is a very self-oriented type of behavior. How has that changed how you think?
Trim sends
//BT//

 

[Joel_BC]

Trim: Not that this thread has come to an end or anthing, but...

But what? Are you trying to say something by NOT saying something? Is there a purpose to your question? What is it about anyone who would write an essay and ask questions that look deeply into our way of thinking that disturbs you?

No, no, Trim. I wastn't disturbed at all. I just said "but..." as a springboard to what I was going to ask next, which was:

Have you concluded anything at this point? You posted with some thoughts and an inquiry or two. Did you get the kind of responses you'd hoped for? and what have the replies, to date, added up to (for you)?

No. The thing was, I was hesitant to ask whether you had come to any conclusions, because I did not want to give the impression the thread had ended or petered out.

I was simpy curious. I think the thread is great.

I think maybe my style in writing that post was confusing, so I apologize for that.

Hope this clears it up.

 

[Beekissed]

Obviously there are those who enjoy sharing their ideas and thinking here and some who just like to find something they can criticize or make a veiled attempt to criticize by asking rhetorical question.

Maybe I missed something along the way, but I didn't read any criticism in Joel's questions....I think he was honestly wanting to know what you concluded from your original questions. I'm just as curious! Were your original questions merely posed to provoke thought on the subject or were you really wanting to know how many have changed over to a ?? SS lifestyle??? since 2008. If so, what was the overall result....more have, few have?

I might have even missed the significance of 2008....my life has went along in the same fashion it has since forever and I didn't really register an economic downturn in any one year as opposed to another. The longer I economize in my own life, the more I don't notice economic hardship in the world of finance and such. I guess there is a certain level of income that doesn't vary much when the stock market has downturns and upswings. That would be my level of income....

 

[Icu4dzs]

Obviously there are those who enjoy sharing their ideas and thinking here and some who just like to find something they can criticize or make a veiled attempt to criticize by asking rhetorical question.

Maybe I missed something along the way, but I didn't read any criticism in Joel's questions....I think he was honestly wanting to know what you concluded from your original questions. I'm just as curious! Were your original questions merely posed to provoke thought on the subject or were you really wanting to know how many have changed over to a ?? SS lifestyle??? since 2008. If so, what was the overall result....more have, few have?

I might have even missed the significance of 2008....my life has went along in the same fashion it has since forever and I didn't really register an economic downturn in any one year as opposed to another. The longer I economize in my own life, the more I don't notice economic hardship in the world of finance and such. I guess there is a certain level of income that doesn't vary much when the stock market has downturns and upswings. That would be my level of income....

Bee, I will begin by saying that I have taken a thrashing for this essay when all I was really trying to do is understand a few important things. One of those things was the issue of "making the change since 2008; the other was making the change from the city to a bare piece of land or just from the city to the farm environment, such as I did. I don't claim to be nor do I want to be living in the dirt as I did when I was just trying to survive in the jungle of Viet Nam so many years ago. I've learned a lot from that and even more since then but the one most important thing I've learned is that the will to survive is the one thing that differentiates us from the quick road to death.

Yes, I feel that things began to get irreversibly bad at about that time and for many reasons, only some of which might be explained by some changes in the people who administer our government, the progression of the economic and global economic downturn became not only more evident but much more serious both in our nation and in many other nations of the world. When in history has such an economic debacle NOT resulted in global war? What is the likelihood of that now, given the ability of some other nations to not only make a thermonuclear device but to deliver it far from their own borders, despite that it may or may not be accurate in its delivery? How does that affect us personally as a nation and us personally at home?

One of the most important statements anyone has written in this thread is in the paragraph YOU wrote above,

The longer I economize in my own life, the more I don't notice economic hardship in the world of finance and such.

It is my assumption that a major part of the goal of our SS life style is to experience as LITTLE impact in our own personal lives as possible, regardless of changes in either the world or the nation both economically as well as what might be caused by global destruction.

Do I believe TN War can be survived? Yes, I do. Will it be easy? NOPE, not even close. But as you say, the more we "economize" and acquire skills that are necessary for us to have things we might need for either basic survival or maintenance of some semblance of "normality" and some enjoyment of our lives, the less we will be impacted by changes outside our immediate environment. Folks had normal happy lives before the 20th century. How far we would have to regress would be determined by our own efforts. I'd rather build a generator than render fat for a candle but if I can't make a light bulb, the candle will come in mighty handy.

For myself, I came to South Dakota 5 years ago, dead broke, but with no mortgage and some tools, some musical instruments, my truck, my little tractor and a HD motorcycle having retired from the Navy. All of the retirement salary goes to support a blind/handicapped daughter and her mother back in Virginia. The first winter was rather tricky for things but as I began to work long hours and benefit from that hard work, I have devoted my resources to my farm and the preservation of my existence, particularly in light of my advancing age, so that I would be allowed to take advantage of the technological advancements despite the changes outside my immediate environment or in my health if that happens.

I put my resources into fixing up the buildings on the farm with roofs and repairs/installatons of electricity and water. I invested in"green energy" by building a wind/solar power generation system to provide electricity whether or not the grid stayed working. I invested in a geothermal heating system to reduce the amount of electricity I would have to generate to keep my home warm despite the -30F temperatures that happen here in SDAK. Getting older has some distinct issues that they never told us about in the briefings before we came to this earth...and finding out about them now is an eye opener for sure.

In the 1970's time frame a magazine called The Mother Earth News came out and the one section that impressed me the most was their "self-sufficiency contest. I made it my goal to either win that contest or come darn close since I had just returned home from a war and was ready to have control of my own life. While things didn't necessarily go exactly that way for me back then, a long and winding road finally brought me to the place where I had acquired a unique and diverse skill set that allowed me to believe I would be able to withstand all the changes that might occur in the event of either global economic or military disaster such as thermonuclear war.

Am I there? Well, I won't know until I am forced to deal with it but I am working toward that as a goal. Am I completely prepared? Who knows, but when you consider the fact that folks came to this land in covered wagons with a heck of a lot less than I have just by having my tools for wood working as well as metal working, I am way ahead of the game. I have a tractor for farming the acres I own. I have a one row planter, etc. I live in a single level house with two bedrooms and a cellar that gets mighty wet at times. I have some out buildings and have put my resources into their preservation and repair. You can't see that very much but it is there. Not doing so would have meant complete destruction of those buildings and they will come in handy for any number of things should I need them. I am NOT a "high roller" from a lifestyle perspective. I spend a lot of my resources on second hand things because they work and they are less expensive to buy. I know what they are supposed to do and only get what I need to do what I want done, unless it isn't available second hand. Some things just aren't...fuel for instance.

I do have 5 head of cattle (all female, 3 of whom I hope are bred). I just processed two hogs and put one in the freezer. I sold my entire 7 acres of corn and 2 acres of beans for cash but by the time I got the checks, the cash was depleted by the cost of materials, i.e. seed, etc. I will have a few hens soon as my beautiful birds were all killed last September and getting new ones has been a challenge for me emotionally. I did rebuild the coop to minimize their vulnerability to varmint predators and that took me a while.
BUT, I learn each time I do things like this. i do spend my "wage earning time" effectively and my skill is marketable so I have a job in this poor economy.

However, in each of these endeavors to be "prepared," G*d has provided me with what I needed either with material, skills or time so that my farm WOULD be ready in the event of some disruption of society as we know it. HE even cleared the way of all the folks who tried to buy this farm and let me buy it so I WOULD be ready. Is this all coincidence or is there a PLAN of HIS that I am following? My guess is that I am HIS SERVANT and doing what I am led to do so that I WILL be ready for any change. Accept that if you will or don't. It is what I BELIEVE!

So to answer your question, I am learning that some folks have a variety of reasons for what they are doing but they all are doing nearly the same thing. I remember a story my mother read to me as a child by Aesop called "The Ant and the Grasshopper". She impressed upon me the importance of being the ant...both figuratively and literally. That mindset never left me and probably never will.

The US Army Special Forces taught me to survive with nothing but a knife for long periods of time. I'm a little ahead of that now but have no reservations about doing it again if I have to. What it really taught me was to have self-confidence in my own self-reliance. Doing so makes life a joy and eliminates the fear many folks never shake because they don't know how to survive in dire circumstances. No, I'm not Rambo killing bears and making coats of their hides, but don't think I wouldn't if I had to do so. It might take me longer now, but I bet I'd be able to do what I have to do to get by.

So, now that you know a little about why I ask the questions I ask and how I answer them, where do we go from here? Does anyone have a motivating factor that parallels my own or is there something else that motivates you?

Trim sends
//BT//

 

[moolie]

Hey Icu4dzs, I don't see where you have "taken a thrashing" in this thread and hope you can see that this is just a discussion based on your OP

I do feel that your initial post makes a few assumptions about why other people are here, and also leaves many of us out of the discussion.

We didn't feel 2008. The economy where I live barely skipped a beat. It's all caught up in the oil and gas industry and drags the rest of us along for the ride. We actually sold a home and bought a different one in 2008, right after things in the US started to go downhill (we sold and bought in June) and prices were totally unaffected here. The did slide a little over the next few months but then rallied and continue to rise, albeit slower than earlier in the local boom. Hubs was out of work for much of 2010 (not economy related, just the ebb and flow of work in his field as an IT contractor, and something for which we are always prepared and survived just fine).

On top of that, we live in the city and don't plan to change that anytime soon. Perhaps in 10 years or so when our kids are done with school and university and hubs' income is less important to our family as a whole. But not until then, we have obligations and we're settled here. And we're good with that. Your question about "making the change" assumes that all of us want the same things in life, and we just don't. For us, it's important that our kids get an education, and it's better for us to live here in the city rather than live in the country and send them off to school with all the added cost of living expenses on top of tuition. Hubs and I both did that, and I personally worked two jobs while away at school just to get through. We want different things for our kids.

We all have choices to make about our lives and how to go forward, and not all of us have the same goals. When I first joined this forum there were more of us who lived in the city and now there are very few of us--I'm sure this is just ebb and flow when it comes to a forum, but I've also found that there are quite a few assumptions made about people who live in the city and on this forum we're not taken as seriously as those who live in the country. People here seem to think that city dwellers are all stupid, rich, and wasteful. Of course I'm generalizing, but I see it implied each day and it gets tiresome.

One type of life is not better or more desirable than another. "Making the change" is a process, not a destination. I mentioned in another thread that hubs and I prefer to think of our lifestyle as "living sustainably" rather than "self sufficient" because we see the "self" as becoming an island unto one's self--and we live in community with others. YMMV.

 

[Beekissed]

is there something else that motivates you?

Yes. Partly I am motivated by my belief system, partly by my upbringing, in part by my life experiences and what they have taught me... and then I am motivated by who I am as a person. I like reality and sensible living~anything less is just not worth my time and effort.

I've never been motivated to live this lifestyle so that I can survive some world wide disaster~unless this lifestyle would enable me to help others in need during those times. I have no desire to hoard, stock pile or prep for any such thing, as my faith in God keeps me from thinking I should depend on merely myself, my own resources or my own abilities in times of adversity~I need only depend on Him. I feel my experience and how God formed me will be better put to use in helping others each day until I leave this Earth~which my beliefs also give an indication will be before any world wide event.

But...mostly... because I have a peaceful and contented heart when I live simply and I realize that I don't need to worry about what the rest of the world worries about. I have peace like a river because I don't need to worry about how I will be taken care of during hard times, how much food will I have put back, how long will I be able to defend what I have, etc. No matter what I have or do not have in hard times, God will provide for my needs.

I don't live like this in order to be self-sufficient, I live like this because God led me here and I want to please~ and depend upon~ my Father's promises and His love. The Bible says He sees a sparrow when it falls, how much more does He notice if I have hard times? That He clothed the lilies of the field, who neither toil nor spin, and what king has clothing more beautiful than they? If He cares for these creatures, how much more carefully does He care for me?

I'm not trying to live self-sufficiently, just sufficiently.

 

[FarmerChick]

for me I could survive anywhere. I was a city gal. I worked corporate, lived in 1 acre neighborhoods with BMWs and all that.
I liked that life but not enough to continue it. I know everyone has that moment. Never sure what exactly is that pinpoint time in one's life when they say, I want a change.
It could be anything, not always economic.

You can't put one factor into determing when someone changes a lifestyle. Economics isn't always a factor in a change of life for someone.

A millionaire one day could say I want more SS in my life. It has nothing to do with their bank account.

People want to live their lives the way they want. Not be told 'they are doing it wrong'. I am super happy I am more sufficient in my lifestyle and if I told a few friends to do what I do (farm) they laugh. no way, i tis not for them. doesn't mean they don't make other changes in their lives to be more suffucient that suits them.

sufficient/frugal/awareness all that is the same to me in a way. when someone gravitates towards these things they are in a process of change and finding new ways to live but keeping it 'their way'.

SS isn't a farm. It isn't a tractor. It isn't 'not' buying some luxury items thru life, it isn't a written down list of things you much achieve in order to qualify. It isn't giving up life as you see fit to live.

I think alot of times we put a label on it and think if you don't hit these requirements you can't be SS. We tell new people to the board all the time that anyone can be more SS. You do what you can with what you have. Most can't afford a farm. Some have health requirements that limit them. But if you have 'any' land at your residence you can certainly put in a small garden. You can recycle/reuse/repurpose more as people have done over centuries. You can support local farms to be sure that local food is thriving in your area.

Hard economies like now force people to open their eyes to others ways to survive. that is good and bad obviously.

Heck my land costs alot in property taxes. Every tax time I flinch. Scrape up the money somehow to keep owning that land. Many times I think 'sell this and get out' lol but I won't

I just made a transformation from income farm biz to no farm sales. I went in the opposite direction now. Many factors made that decision for me in my family. But someone else is running toward exactly what I just closed down. There are seasons in people's lives. When change is required most people know this and start to work toward that change and fit it into their lifestyle. One can live many ways thru this life. I have.

Soon my life will be retirement phase. Land and all goes to my daughter for her to use/sell as she sees fit. I am retiring at the beach with my motorhome and enjoying my retirement exactly as I want. (of course this is all based on hope, cause life sure can change in the blink of an eye)

I know my life's plans and can only hope they pan out. People can have as many changes in their lives as they want. There is no time limit, no rules, no anything. Someone in the city who leads a certain lifestyle in 5 yrs could be living on a farm raising hogs like I did. No telling how people will arrange their lives mostly. It isn't up to anyone to do it for them either.

thing is the SS meaning will never be the same for anyone. it can't be.

just rambling along

 

[Icu4dzs]

for me I could survive anywhere. I was a city gal. I worked corporate, lived in 1 acre neighborhoods with BMWs and all that.
I liked that life but not enough to continue it. I know everyone has that moment. Never sure what exactly is that pinpoint time in one's life when they say, I want a change.
It could be anything, not always economic.

You can't put one factor into determing when someone changes a lifestyle. Economics isn't always a factor in a change of life for someone.

A millionaire one day could say I want more SS in my life. It has nothing to do with their bank account.

People want to live their lives the way they want. Not be told 'they are doing it wrong'. I am super happy I am more sufficient in my lifestyle and if I told a few friends to do what I do (farm) they laugh. no way, i tis not for them. doesn't mean they don't make other changes in their lives to be more suffucient that suits them.

sufficient/frugal/awareness all that is the same to me in a way. when someone gravitates towards these things they are in a process of change and finding new ways to live but keeping it 'their way'.

SS isn't a farm. It isn't a tractor. It isn't 'not' buying some luxury items thru life, it isn't a written down list of things you much achieve in order to qualify. It isn't giving up life as you see fit to live.

I think alot of times we put a label on it and think if you don't hit these requirements you can't be SS. We tell new people to the board all the time that anyone can be more SS. You do what you can with what you have. Most can't afford a farm. Some have health requirements that limit them. But if you have 'any' land at your residence you can certainly put in a small garden. You can recycle/reuse/repurpose more as people have done over centuries. You can support local farms to be sure that local food is thriving in your area.

Hard economies like now force people to open their eyes to others ways to survive. that is good and bad obviously.

Heck my land costs alot in property taxes. Every tax time I flinch. Scrape up the money somehow to keep owning that land. Many times I think 'sell this and get out' lol but I won't

I just made a transformation from income farm biz to no farm sales. I went in the opposite direction now. Many factors made that decision for me in my family. But someone else is running toward exactly what I just closed down. There are seasons in people's lives. When change is required most people know this and start to work toward that change and fit it into their lifestyle. One can live many ways thru this life. I have.

Soon my life will be retirement phase. Land and all goes to my daughter for her to use/sell as she sees fit. I am retiring at the beach with my motorhome and enjoying my retirement exactly as I want. (of course this is all based on hope, cause life sure can change in the blink of an eye)

I know my life's plans and can only hope they pan out. People can have as many changes in their lives as they want. There is no time limit, no rules, no anything. Someone in the city who leads a certain lifestyle in 5 yrs could be living on a farm raising hogs like I did. No telling how people will arrange their lives mostly. It isn't up to anyone to do it for them either.

thing is the SS meaning will never be the same for anyone. it can't be.

just rambling along

And beautifully worded!
Trim sends
//BT//

 

[moolie]

is there something else that motivates you?

Yes. Partly I am motivated by my belief system, partly by my upbringing, in part by my life experiences and what they have taught me... and then I am motivated by who I am as a person. I like reality and sensible living~anything less is just not worth my time and effort.

I've never been motivated to live this lifestyle so that I can survive some world wide disaster~unless this lifestyle would enable me to help others in need during those times. I have no desire to hoard, stock pile or prep for any such thing, as my faith in God keeps me from thinking I should depend on merely myself, my own resources or my own abilities in times of adversity~I need only depend on Him. I feel my experience and how God formed me will be better put to use in helping others each day until I leave this Earth~which my beliefs also give an indication will be before any world wide event.

But...mostly... because I have a peaceful and contented heart when I live simply and I realize that I don't need to worry about what the rest of the world worries about. I have peace like a river because I don't need to worry about how I will be taken care of during hard times, how much food will I have put back, how long will I be able to defend what I have, etc. No matter what I have or do not have in hard times, God will provide for my needs.

I don't live like this in order to be self-sufficient, I live like this because God led me here and I want to please~ and depend upon~ my Father's promises and His love. The Bible says He sees a sparrow when it falls, how much more does He notice if I have hard times? That He clothed the lilies of the field, who neither toil nor spin, and what king has clothing more beautiful than they? If He cares for these creatures, how much more carefully does He care for me?

I'm not trying to live self-sufficiently, just sufficiently.

Thank you. What a lovely eloquent post.

It can be so easy to get caught up in "planning" life and forget to "live" life, and life is for the living. God put us here to enjoy His creation.

 

[Icu4dzs]

Hey Icu4dzs, I don't see where you have "taken a thrashing" in this thread and hope you can see that this is just a discussion based on your OP

This is NOT the only place I published this essay (OP). There are those in some places who feel that if I am not killing bears and wearing their skins for clothing that I am not truly livng a SS lifestyle. You can appreciate the absurdity of those kinds of reactions. While I may have a marketable skill that brings in a decent paycheck, I put my resources where my mouth is...

I do feel that your initial post makes a few assumptions about why other people are here, and also leaves many of us out of the discussion.

Moolie, while I tend to write from my own perspective, I guess the issue (at least to me) here is not "why folks post on this forum" but "why they choose a SS lifestyle" whether it is in the city, suburbs or way out in the country or on a farm.

We all have choices to make about our lives and how to go forward, and not all of us have the same goals. When I first joined this forum there were more of us who lived in the city and now there are very few of us--I'm sure this is just ebb and flow when it comes to a forum, but I've also found that there are quite a few assumptions made about people who live in the city and on this forum we're not taken as seriously as those who live in the country. People here seem to think that city dwellers are all stupid, rich, and wasteful. Of course I'm generalizing, but I see it implied each day and it gets tiresome.

I do think you may be just a bit over generalizing here. I don't see any issue with folks who choose to live in the city. I for one, found it untenable early in life for many reasons, the biggest of which was the fact that it had become unsafe to live in the city because there were too many folks who came from other places and decided to bring their bad habits and crime and whole manner of bad things with them and then force everyone else to "be tolerant" of their violence and bad behavior. The squeaky wheel (although in the minority at that time) got the grease and so I said, I can't beat them so I am NOT going to join them and I LEFT. They can have it.

There are plenty of folks who are NOT in that category but they seem to tolerate those issues better than I did. I had my house broken into, my truck broken into and my tools stolen, my garden just ripped out (it was 48" x 60" in size) and can go on. I slept with a 9mm under my pillow. Why did I have to live like that? I was the ONLY guy with blue eyes in 28 square blocks renovating an old town house that I bought near a train station. Life rapidly became untenable with all the crime directed toward me for "invading their space" perpetrated mainly by adolescents not adults. The Mayor of Baltimore actually caught a kid vandalizing my house and personally arrested him. Finally, I sold the house and left. The fact that they were giving a war somewhere did manage to influence that decision but it wasn't fun.

That was in the late 70's. I gave the city life an honest try. I had a job teaching school in the inner city and made very little money because teachers aren't all that valuable to society. That got me to decide on putting all my energy into going to medical school and so I did. The Three Mile Island reactor melted down the day I was putting the roof on my house. I will admit that the prospects of being down wind and down river from TMI helped me make the decision because if Baltimore had required evacuation, things might have been rather tricky (if you know what I mean) :/

One type of life is not better or more desirable than another. "Making the change" is a process, not a destination. I mentioned in another thread that hubs and I prefer to think of our lifestyle as "living sustainably" rather than "self sufficient" because we see the "self" as becoming an island unto one's self--and we live in community with others. YMMV.

Quite frankly, sustainability is to me the prime issue because of the changes in society that ARE possible. As I said, a lifestyle that is minimally impacted by what goes on around us.
That to me is the most important of all the issues because I want my children and grandchildren to have a life without having to be slaves to the "system" so they can be contributing member of society in a meaningful and responsible manner.

While I agree that "making the change" in your mind may be a process rather than an event, and since things in nature happen primarily by process rather than event (which is why I have some difficulty with the "BIG BANG" theory,) I found it necessary to make the change in that situation by EVENT. I packed up my tools, my banjo, my shotgun and my blanket (I had very little in those days) and left town, not to return.

As for the response Bee wrote I completely agree, but unlike some folks, I was raised to believe that "G*D helps those who help themselves" I just do and go where I am lead by HIM.

Trim sends

//BT//