opinions?

[DrakeMaiden]

Teach sons and daughters all the house skills you know how to do.
If he is not very involved in raising them- they are likely to learn from you mostly. Your husband may not even notice that your daughter helped fix something or that the son put laundry in the machine or sewed his button back on himself. Just encourage them to be self-sufficient and praise them for their new skills/achievements.

All children should help around the house, to practice the life skills they will need in their homes and with their families later. Some jobs can be done by little kids. You can "teach them how to" do the other ones as they grow up. Phrasing it like "you're big enough to do . . . now, so I'll show you how makes kids feel empowered.

Excellent advice!

 

[Wildsky]

Pat, your kids will be perfect, they can get everything they need from you and even have a bad example to see right in the home.

You have the answers within yourself.

 

[pioneergirl]

Miss_TheNorth hit it right on the head.....AGREE!!!

 

[patandchickens]

Wow, I cannot thank y'all enough. THANK YOU! This is just a really great bunch of folks on this forum. (I would not have even POSTED this anywhere else)

You're not asking for advice on whether to leave or change your marriage, but instead how to raise the boys to be responsible members of society.

Exactly!

if it's any consolation, my mom and step dad have 2 children together and those kids realize their dad is a selfish child himself. Kids pick up on it, and at least in the case of my siblings they've realized what NOT to do or how NOT to be by his example.

Thank you (and everyone else who shared similar experiences from their lives) for giving me some realistic basis for hope

I once had to take a course through work on "How to Deal with Difficult People". The only real thing I remember is:
1. You'll never change them - stop trying
2. You have to change how you react to his actions. Don't let him push your buttons - you and the kids need to take care of yourselves just like he's not around (I don't mean ignore him, just don't plan on ever getting any help from him.)

Yup, it took me a few years to figure that out but for the last maybe four years that has been my 'words to live by'. Mostly it works pretty well, at least from a domestic-tranquility and blood-pressure standpoint.

It just worries me that, you know, it seems like boys tend to take their father as a role model more than their mothers (and vice versa for girls), and in fact several folks on this thread have alluded to my husband being this way because of HIS role models growing up (which IMO is one of several contributing factors)... well, not to put too fine a point on it, but I would rather not be raising them to expect everyone to take care of THEM, nor to be dishonest and spiteful and disengaged and so forth, you know?

your kids are not stupid. They pick up on things, and will clue in to what a lazy, unmovitated couch potatoe he is,especially since seeing him will contradict pretty much everything that you will be teaching them. And don't make excuses for him. As time goes on, in a round about way (not through bashing, of course,) you can tell them what is expected of them, even when they see dad not doing what is expected.

Yup, but that is the part that I most of all don't know how to do. However irritated I may sound in my posts ont he subject I do NOT want to be holding him up as any sort of counterexample or saying 'see, look at how you don't like your father not apologizing to you, don't YOU be doing that to other people'... but I just have a real hard time figuring out how, in actual situations, to not *excuse* his behavior without *criticizing* it. And how to have them not grow up assuming that's how men *should* act. Does that make any sense? Any concrete suggestions/examples of HOW to do that would be GREATLY welcomed.

And the worst thing you can do is try to be a mother to your husband. It just causes way too much stress, cuz he is an adult, and as you probably already know, you can't change him.

You know what, I sure seem to have to keep relearning this frequently. It is just so hard to resist. (I was not raised to take care of everyone around me, far from it, but I was raised to be polite and responsible and do what's necessary, which for me tends to amount to the same thing...). Thank you for saying this, I needed to hear it (again)!

And that's the end of the part of this post dealing with my actual QUESTION, about how to raise decent kids.

To address two other things that came up:

Icu4dzs, I will interpret most of your posts on this thread as venting about other things in YOUR life. Which is ok. But for what it is worth, 1) it has long been clear that my husband probably IS mildly depressed and always has been; but there is nothing whatsoever that can apparently be DONE about it since he vigorously disagrees.
2) There are some times he finds work frustrating because he does not like being expected to DO things, but by and large he likes it, and as it is the only job he has ever had in his life (he will probably be one of the last Canadian gov't employees to retire with 40+ years' service, om another ten years or so) and he is *horrified* by the idea of having to switch to any other job.

And 3) as far as I know he is only "sexually frustrated" by the fact that I am neither imaginary, inflatable, nor an airbrushed swedish nudie model. (BTW, I do not know why you are leaping to the conclusion I am horrified by him looking at porn. I am not thrilled, who would be, but it's his life and what he does on his time is his business not mine <shrug>. I don't think he does it *that* much anyhow. What gets up my nose is the cowardly stupid LYING about it when it is RIGHT THERE ON THE SCREEN IN FRONT OF MY EYES. )

Everything else you wrote pales in comparison to the phrase "no serious violence". That one scares me. Perhaps I misinterpreted what you were saying.

Sigh, I shouldn't have put it that way, because I did not mean to open that can of worms... but since I carelessly *have*, I will clarify with the following. He has not hit me but gunned the car right at me on the driveway in a fit of pique 6ish years ago. I um er ahem expressed my feelings about this (primarily, horror and shock) and said "Do anything like that again, and you are SO out of here and NO second chances buster". He has done nothing similar since then, (well the passive-aggressive type stuff kind of escalated but oh well. (Actually there WAS one benefit from marital counselling; he no longer insults and belittles me directly, which does make things more pleasant)

As for the kids, judge me as you will, but after probably too long just *arguing* about him being physically rough (not legally abusive, just, you know, 'grey area') with the kids if he was in a bad mood, last fall I happened to be standing on the other side of a window when he didn't know I was there (again, it was rough but not legally actionable) and the upshot was that I said if he wanted to live under the same roof as these kids, he would enroll in an anger management class asap, and not be spending any time alone with the kids til he did, and if anything like this ever happens again, he is SOOOOOO out of here, and will be talking with Childrens Services and divorce lawyers. Given that it scares the bejeebers out of him to NOT have me as his butler/mommy, and that he *does* love the kids, he has been real good with them since then, and I believe it will stick.

Yeah, I know, I got *myself* into this mess, and I have not done as good a job at managing things as probably many of you would have done, and I am not happy about it, but you know, that's life. I'm doing my best, and I don't think I'm doing SO bad at raising the kids, and at least they are growing up DOING things (eldest just turned 6 yesterday, he can make banana bread on his own except for putting in the oven, and can use a saw and hammer on soft wood, and is kind to animals; the younger one is 3, and in his own personal way is growing up similarly) and having a mom at home and having fun and all that.

I just feel like it's my fault they're not in a better situation and I hate that, and I want to do as much right as I can, you know?

Thanks again guys, you are very sensible people and I can't tell you how much I appreciate the support and advice.

Pat

 

[miss_thenorth]

miss_thenorth wrote:
your kids are not stupid. They pick up on things, and will clue in to what a lazy, unmovitated couch potatoe he is,especially since seeing him will contradict pretty much everything that you will be teaching them. And don't make excuses for him. As time goes on, in a round about way (not through bashing, of course,) you can tell them what is expected of them, even when they see dad not doing what is expected.

Yup, but that is the part that I most of all don't know how to do. However irritated I may sound in my posts ont he subject I do NOT want to be holding him up as any sort of counterexample or saying 'see, look at how you don't like your father not apologizing to you, don't YOU be doing that to other people'... but I just have a real hard time figuring out how, in actual situations, to not *excuse* his behavior without *criticizing* it. And how to have them not grow up assuming that's how men *should* act. Does that make any sense? Any concrete suggestions/examples of HOW to do that would be GREATLY welcomed.

Not exactly sure how to answer this in your environemnt, so i'll give you an example in mine, with a bit of history to set the stage.

As wonderful as my hubby is, the only bad thing I can say about him is he is absolutely terrible with money/money management. Your post on how do you do we budget for things? Well, I would have to answer C to all things, big or little. (I have recenty made a change, wher he is now on control of paying bills, since he is so unaware of our financial situation.) We have overdraft , bank cards, a visa and a line of credit. So when hubby wants--hubby buys with absolutely no awareness of what it is actually costing us. If there is not enough in the bank acount, overdraft will cover it. When I see that we are in the red, I have to tranfer money from the line of credit so the fees won't kill us. visa bil comes in at $5k? Again, I have to transfer from line of credit. I am extremely frugal, and want more than anything to get out of debt. When i tell him that we need to buckle down and lower the line of credit, I am a nag, I am trying to spoil all his fun. he feels he is entitled to spend money b/c he is the one making it. He doesn't worry, b/c he says his job is secure, he loves his job, and will work till he's 65, so there is no need to worry about money.

Okay--enough for history. the kids are very aware of our money battles. I have to teach them responsible money management, b/c I sincerely do NOT want them to take on this attitude towards money when they leave the nest. i stress to the kids that for all money earned, they should be banking at least half right now. The other half is theirs. I tell them repeatedly (without even mentioning their father) that debt is a vicious cycle, and you become a slave to money (and elaborate on this) I tell them that we need to tell our money what to do, not have our money tell us what to do. That we need to have a plan. I teach them to not mke impulsive decsions. I stress that it is much better to collect interest on your savings, rather than pay a bank interest on money you borrow from them. I tell them there is much more pride of ownership in thanigs that are actually bought an dpaid for becasu in reality, if you take a loan out for them, you really dont own them yet--it's not really real.

I have not bashed hubby in any of my "lectures", but they get the point. they are also aware of how their dad spends money and how I do it. they hve stated already that they plan on buying with cash. they have also hard the arguements we have had about money, the last fight was a doozey where hubby wanted to buy a plane with a price tag of $30k, and planned on getting a new line of credit to pay for it, or cash out my spousal rrsp(this wass supposed to make me feel better since it would not incur more debt, hmmph) That fight lasted three weeks, and their was no hiding it from the kids. (btw--he did NOT get the plane) My kids would try to talk to him, cuZ they even saw him being childish about it. Of course hubby thought I had put them up to it, but I would never do that. so the kids get it.

I dont know if that helps you , but if you tell them what you expect and what society expects of them, hold the bar high for them, and tell them they can reach it. Also, obviously dril into their heads about respect. respect goes a long way towards responsibility. Another example is my dad smokes. the kids have been taught the dangers of smoking for years. Every now and again, they start bad mouthing their grand father about smoking. itell them . --yes we all know smoking is bad, but it is your grandfathers decsion to smok, and while we don't like it, we must respect his decision. We all know he would be better off if he didn't but we can't change him. We can only be responsible for ourselves.

Did I just ramble too much without making any sense?

 

[dragonlaurel]

Sigh, I shouldn't have put it that way, because I did not mean to open that can of worms... but since I carelessly *have*, I will clarify with the following. He has not hit me but gunned the car right at me on the driveway in a fit of pique 6ish years ago. I um er ahem expressed my feelings about this (primarily, horror and shock) and said "Do anything like that again, and you are SO out of here and NO second chances buster".
He has done nothing similar since then, (well the passive-aggressive type stuff kind of escalated but oh well. (Actually there WAS one benefit from marital counseling; he no longer insults and belittles me directly, which does make things more pleasant)

As for the kids, judge me as you will, but after probably too long just *arguing* about him being physically rough (not legally abusive, just, you know, 'grey area') with the kids if he was in a bad mood, last fall I happened to be standing on the other side of a window when he didn't know I was there (again, it was rough but not legally actionable) and the upshot was that I said if he wanted to live under the same roof as these kids, he would enroll in an anger management class asap, and not be spending any time alone with the kids til he did, and if anything like this ever happens again, he is SOOOOOO out of here, and will be talking with Childrens Services and divorce lawyers. Given that it scares the bejeebers out of him to NOT have me as his butler/mommy, and that he *does* love the kids, he has been real good with them since then, and I believe it will stick.

Yeah, I know, I got *myself* into this mess, and I have not done as good a job at managing things as probably many of you would have done, and I am not happy about it, but you know, that's life. I'm doing my best, and I don't think I'm doing SO bad at raising the kids, and at least they are growing up DOING things (eldest just turned 6 yesterday, he can make banana bread on his own except for putting in the oven, and can use a saw and hammer on soft wood, and is kind to animals; the younger one is 3, and in his own personal way is growing up similarly) and having a mom at home and having fun and all that.

I just feel like it's my fault they're not in a better situation and I hate that, and I want to do as much right as I can, you know?

Thanks again guys, you are very sensible people and I can't tell you how much I appreciate the support and advice.
Pat

I shortened the quote part to the parts I am responding to.
" Yeah, I know, I got *myself* into this mess, and I have not done as good a job at managing things as probably many of you would have done, and I am not happy about it, but you know, that's life. "
You're human. People do not come with warning signs that describe what it would be like to live with them. Your husband is not perfect, but if you feel the good in the marriage outweighs the bad, that is what matters. If your situation changes you seem realistic enough to do whatever is needed. I'm glad that when he was rough, you took it seriously and took steps to make sure that you and the kids are safe and stay that way. He seems to know where the line is now. Having a back up plan might be reassuring for you, but it sounds like he doesn't want to cross it.

I'm glad that the the kids are still quite young and you are already teaching them how to do stuff around the house. He is probably not home with them most of the day, so you have all those hours available to train them to be self sufficient and to treat other people well. They will see that Dad doesn't do some of those things, but kids love to learn and learning how to do stuff gives them such a feeling of accomplishment. Self pride is a strong motivator. So teach them both lots of skills, let them "help you" while they are still young enough to want to.
Remember that things you consider chores, they might consider fun if you talk about it right and do it when you are in a good mood. Reading moods is easy for many kids, so if you are in a good mood they will be open to trying it themselves.
Make a point of learning new skills regularly and let them help with any part of it that is safe for them. Then they will grow up expecting to do lots of cool stuff and knowing that normal people can do lots of things for themselves. That's a great start. When anything you try doesn't work out - admit it, without being hard on yourself. This will reinforce the honesty lesson without teaching them to be judgmental.

You have to be a great example about honesty and admitting mistakes, since that is a weak spot in the Dad. Teach them there are some situations that need tact to not hurt feelings but that telling the truth matters. If they ever catch you screwing up, or especially lying, - 'fess up and apologize, then do whatever you can to correct the situation. This shows them how to admit mistakes, and that you consider honesty important. If they catch Dad in a lie- tell them you wish he wouldn't do that then drop it. They will know you don't like the behavior, but you wont have to say anything nasty about him.
When they start to notice that he has faults- tell them that sometimes people you love still do things you don't like. Sometimes you put up with a little bit of bad if there is lots of other stuff that is good.
It sounds like the kids are doing good so far, and I think they will turn out fine.

 

[Kim_NC]

I actually read this entire trail of messages, every word. First, I wanted to respond to this

Yeah, I know, I got *myself* into this mess, and I have not done as good a job at managing things as probably many of you would have done, and I am not happy about it, but you know, that's life. I'm doing my best, and I don't think I'm doing SO bad at raising the kids, and at least they are growing up DOING things (eldest just turned 6 yesterday, he can make banana bread on his own except for putting in the oven, and can use a saw and hammer on soft wood, and is kind to animals; the younger one is 3, and in his own personal way is growing up similarly) and having a mom at home and having fun and all that.

I just feel like it's my fault they're not in a better situation and I hate that, and I want to do as much right as I can, you know?

Reading various posts of yours on various forums, I've always found you to be intelligent, someone who thinks things through, someone very logical.

So... , , . Reading that I just felt you could really use some hugs. You're a realist - sure you did choose him, which did at least partially bring you to where you (all of you) are today. But you're also doing the best the you can with a situation that's obviously not always easy. Don't be too hard on yourself.

Of course you want to do as many things right as possible. You're a good parent...hence the desire to give your children a solid upbringing.

And so I think at this stage of the posts, your main question is focused here:

Yup, but that is the part that I most of all don't know how to do. However irritated I may sound in my posts ont he subject I do NOT want to be holding him up as any sort of counterexample or saying 'see, look at how you don't like your father not apologizing to you, don't YOU be doing that to other people'... but I just have a real hard time figuring out how, in actual situations, to not *excuse* his behavior without *criticizing* it. And how to have them not grow up assuming that's how men *should* act. Does that make any sense? Any concrete suggestions/examples of HOW to do that would be GREATLY welcomed.

When a difficulty arises where you feel "dad" has not set the best of examples, you can discuss with the children other ways people deal with similar situations. You don't have to draw a direct comparison to dad.

Instead of "look at how you don't like your father not apologizing to you, don't YOU be doing that to other people"

You don't need to draw a direct comparion to him at all. Try .."learning to apologise when appropiate is important. Sometimes we need to put ourselves in other people's shoes, and apologise if we did something we would not want done to us. Things like that make a big difference in our happiness and our loved ones' happiness."

There are many good suggestions here. Giving the children something of their own to be responsible for, make decisions about (like the example of raising their own sheep) is one I really liked.

An example of this....we have a CSA family (customers) with 3 young boys. They have chickens. The 2 oldest boys are responsible for the chickens, decide which breeds to get, have the daily care 'chores', etc. Each week when they come to pick up the family's CSA share box, the boys bring any extra eggs they have and I purchase them. They get to make a decision - do they want money for their eggs?, or to trade for equal value of something they like (a favorite homemade jam, etc)?

We (their parents and I) treat the transaction as if it's business between the children and myself. Parents give a little coaching - like say 'thanks' at the end of the transaction, etc. The kids always leave smiling - and personally, it's one of the best parts of our busy work day at the farmers market.

One additional suggestion....think about scouting or other similar programs where the chidren will meet and learn from additional positive role models. Even if your DH was the best-dad-ever - OK so he isn't always, but still - one can never have too many strong role models. Scouting, Church programs, other youth organizations, etc, are good places to provide these experiences for your children. It's important to have good social role models outside the home. You and DH don't have to do it all.

edit: typos *sigh*

 

[Icu4dzs]

Miss_thenorth

I have to teach them responsible money management, b/c I sincerely do NOT want them to take on this attitude towards money when they leave the nest. i stress to the kids that for all money earned, they should be banking at least half right now. The other half is theirs. I tell them repeatedly (without even mentioning their father) that debt is a vicious cycle, and you become a slave to money (and elaborate on this) I tell them that we need to tell our money what to do, not have our money tell us what to do. That we need to have a plan. I teach them to not mke impulsive decsions. I stress that it is much better to collect interest on your savings, rather than pay a bank interest on money you borrow from them. I tell them there is much more pride of ownership in thanigs that are actually bought an dpaid for becasu in reality, if you take a loan out for them, you really dont own them yet--it's not really real.

the last fight was a doozey where [hubby wanted to buy a plane with a price tag of $30k and planned on getting a new line of credit to pay for it, or cash out my spousal rrsp(this wass supposed to make me feel better since it would not incur more debt, hmmph) That fight lasted three weeks, and their was no hiding it from the kids. (btw--he did NOT get the plane)

My kids would try to talk to him, cuZ they even saw him being childish about it. Of course hubby thought I had put them up to it, but I would never do that. so the kids get it.

I dont know if that helps you , but if you tell them what you expect and what society expects of them, hold the bar high for them, and tell them they can reach it. Also, obviously dril into their heads about respect. respect goes a long way towards responsibility. . We can only be responsible for ourselves.

Did I just ramble too much without making any sense?

It makes all the sense in the world and is very good guidance on many levels.

Your action here was a life-saver for both you, the children and your spouse. Planes are "holes in the ground into which you throw all your money" and hopefully do not become smoking holes in the ground with you and your children aboard.

I have over 20 years of experience in the aviation field and have seen the worst. The best is always quite different.

Planes only lose value and they don't really have a function unless you commute far enough to make it worthwhile and keeping current in the skills of flying is an ongoing process that can be destroyed by even the slightest of mistakes. Aviation in general is extraordinarily expensive and not for those on a budget or for cashing out your savings because the maintenance is always MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE than the cost of the airplane. You did well here.

I am particularly impressed with your guidance to your children on the issue of money and debt. Teaching our children is the one greatest gift we give them other than life itself. You've done well here. Debt is the poison of our society. Buying what you can afford prevents this and keeps one from being a slave to debt.

I will say that one of my life's greatest goal was to be debt free when I retired. I did accomplish that but then went back to work because what I do is needed where I am.

The beauty of this is that I don't have to work if I were to choose not to and that what I earn is mine, not a series of payments to debters. It is the most liberating feeling in the world to be debt free. I saw these words carved in stone once in a beautiful garden in an industrial park in Virginia; "FELIX QUI NIHIL DEBIT". That statement could never be truer.

There is an excellent book you might want your children to read. I was introduced to it in my 40's by the father of one of my colleagues who had just retired from a second-in-command of one of the country's most successful corporations. The book is called "The Richest Man in Babylon" and it is very short but it will certainly help your children and maybe your husband will benefit from it as well. You have told them to save half and live on half. The book only stresses 10% but the principle is the same. Make the money do what you tell it, not what it tells you.

Icu4dzs, I will interpret most of your posts on this thread as venting about other things in YOUR life. Which is ok. But for what it is worth, 1) it has long been clear that my husband probably IS mildly depressed and always has been; but there is nothing whatsoever that can apparently be DONE about it since he vigorously disagrees.
2) There are some times he finds work frustrating because he does not like being expected to DO things, but by and large he likes it, and as , om another ten years or so) and he is *horrified* by the idea of having to switch to any other job.
And 3) as far as I know he is only "sexually frustrated" by the fact that I am neither imaginary, inflatable, nor an airbrushed swedish nudie model. (BTW, I do not know why you are leaping to the conclusion I am horrified by him looking at porn. I am not thrilled, who would be, but it's his life and what he does on his time is his business not mine <shrug>. I don't think he does it *that* much anyhow. What gets up my nose is the cowardly stupid LYING about it when it is RIGHT THERE ON THE SCREEN IN FRONT OF MY EYES. )

PatandChickens...
I suppose you might be lead to think that (based on what you see or read from others here) this has some reflection on my life but no, that is not the case. This has nothing to do with my "personal" issues...yes we all have some, but what I write here is what I have seen during nearly 40 years of professional practice. I have taken care of a significant number of families who have the same issues, and unfortunately, do not appear to have the wisdom expressed by Miss_the North when it comes to the teaching of money management to her children. Her approach would also be easily adapted to most of the issues you raised when originally asking for help.

As for the depression, I see this a lot in practice. Many are unwilling to accept depression as an explanation for how they feel because they equate depression with "being crazy" and the stigmata of mental health issues. Folks will accept that they have heart disease, but not accept that they have mental health disease because it does not affect them with symptoms such as shortness of breath or physical pain.

You mention that your husband has a gov't job.

it is the only job he has ever had in his life (he will probably be one of the last Canadian gov't employees to retire with 40+ years' service

Working for that long a time in the same job can affect anyone negatively although they may not be able or willing to express it. To make things worse, the closer one gets to retirement, the more "issues" that begin to show and aggressive folks generally try to take advantage of a worker nearer to retirement in an effort to "save the company money". Hopefully (for both of you) he is "vested" and his retirement is assured or his anxiety level could go "to the roof" if he feels that the retirement for which he has worked so long could be jeopardized.

That kind of anxiety is very difficult to manage for anyone. I've seen that in the gov't service in this country. Young, aggressive management types start trying to make a name for themselves by "culling the herd" and making the company "more efficient". He may sense that in the job setting and it is very hard to deal with on an emotional level for any person.

Obviously, his concern about this can affect how he behaves and can (if something adverse happened to his job) leave you and the children without any support from his retirement. That is a difficult situation to be sure.

As for being "horrified because he looks at porn is NOT the case. I don't think that is really the issue. (frankly I don't care whether he looks at porn or not. I believe the ISSUE is the lying to you when you are able to see that he is lying)

I think that "horror" came from some of the other folks who post here who have their own personal issues with that. Men are as I said before, hard wired differently than women. Men depend in great part on the sense of sight for much of their "excitation" but women depend on what they hear more often for what excites them physically. That is not to say that women are not "turned on" by the things they see, (plenty of women like to look at Mel Gibson, Brad Pitt, etc) but the motivation for sharing intimacy frequently is dependent on things they hear and sense...such as kind words and feelings of security.

If this was not true, then why would women "fall in love" and have "affairs" over the internet when they have never met an individual?

Men do it too, of course, but if you get into the details, men will more often want a photograph to stimulate them moreso than just what they read or are told in many cases. As I said, the issue of sexual frustration is often NOT a case of "not enough sex" but more a sense of intimacy between the man and woman. Intimacy is a tricky thing and just because the mechanics of "sex" work, it may not necessarily be the problem. A lot of the success of intimacy is how the partner responds to the other's feelings and how those feelings are expressed. (How about "Well, OK but hurry up...I have to get the children to school!) There is a real "mood buster for you.

You wouldn't believe some of the things folks tell you in the office. Some people like to have a fight so they can have "make up" sessions. It is the need to feel vindicated and valued rather than the need to have physical release that helps resolve the conflict. And OBTW, more than 90% of ED is psychological, NOT physiologic (such as in diabetes or vascular disease.)

I apologize for the long, wordy posts, but things like this are not solved with "one-liners" or diatribes about those who attempt to be helpful. None of us can see both sides of an issue because we can only exist on one side or the other. That is how we are built.

Best
Trim

 

[miss_thenorth]

Your action here was a life-saver for both you, the children and your spouse. Planes are "holes in the ground into which you throw all your money" and hopefully do not become smoking holes in the ground with you and your children aboard.

I have over 20 years of experience in the aviation field and have seen the worst. The best is always quite different.

Planes only lose value and they don't really have a function unless you commute far enough to make it worthwhile and keeping current in the skills of flying is an ongoing process that can be destroyed by even the slightest of mistakes. Aviation in general is extraordinarily expensive and not for those on a budget or for cashing out your savings because the maintenance is always MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE than the cost of the airplane. You did well here.

Well thank you for your opinion of planes, unwarranted as it was :/. FWIW, hubby has been flying an advanced ultraight for many years. I dont have a problem with planes, or my kids going up with him. I have a problem of going into debt over one. Now he wants a sonix, and last time I checked, both those planes hold their resale value very well.

 

[pioneergirl]

I have over 20 years of experience in the aviation field and have seen the worst. The best is always quite different.

Planes only lose value and they don't really have a function unless you commute far enough to make it worthwhile and keeping current in the skills of flying is an ongoing process that can be destroyed by even the slightest of mistakes. Aviation in general is extraordinarily expensive and not for those on a budget or for cashing out your savings because the maintenance is always MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE than the cost of the airplane

Somehow this thread went from offering help to Pat and her situation to blatant testosterone filled chest beating. I agree with miss_thenorth, and on here, it would behoove people to NOT ASSUME things about others, as it will only make you look moronic.