You have to be careful with that as some credits are only available to certain manufactured products that meet certifications and warranties and then only if installed by qualified contractors - that by itself can wipe-out any tax credits and incentives, but you are right as it being the best bang for the buck if you have a moderate to heavy use in a good climate.Nifty said:
Solar Water Heater--Can be done!
- Thread starter FarmerChick
- Start date
<delete> Don't know where to put this, but is as good a place as any for now. Nifty can remove or delete as instructed by the California code of cold water pipes in A-frame vaults. </delete>
Sorry this got out of hand and couldn't stop, I was on a roll and my keyboard is slanted downhill.
With the federal and state tax credit money hung out like a carrot in front of a mule contractors and stores are only happy to take your money, problem is they don't always have your best interest in mind. They may not come out with a bold face lie, but they can also leave out the truth.
As an example, A new air conditioner that meets the government seer 16 rating is eligible for the $2500 tax credit, nope - the entire system has to be certified by manufacture specs - you will need a copy for the IRS when called on. What does that mean? well you can buy that fancy new machine but unless you also already have or upgrade to a new air handler that has a multistage blower system your tax credit will be negated - try to fool the feds and that $2500 credit just turned into a $5000 house lien because of interest and penalties, not to mention IRS fraud which will stick to you like BP oil on a penguin (bad analogy but you know what I mean).
Contractors want to sell you that $5000 air conditioner but also know you need a new $5000 air handle to make the credit requirements, they do offer you both at $10,000 but you say that is too much and only want the AC . They won't tell you that by itself it is not available for the credit - so they did not lie. This happens at least a thousand times a month in the USA. You won't know until tax time either unless you verify before signing anything.
All new systems be them air conditioners, heat pumps, or mini-splits need a multi-stage or variable frequency drive air handler - not a multi-speed or tapped blower. All things considered multi-staged and VFD's are much more efficient then speed tapped blowers in the right application, A bad install will screw up the best of equipment and a good install can make a house brand look great. Check references please.
Also most people are unaware or don't understand the 3 day rule of rescission, it mostly only applies to contractors who "cold call" on you, meaning you did not call them first. Regardless they will still try to get you to sign a waiver of the 3 day rule, usually jumbled up in a bunch of other micro print legalese and it will hold up in court.
Worst of all are the predators who offer a cheap service by installing a $5 air filter then brow beats you into a $2000 duct cleaning service but a few days later you call to cancel and can't because they know that law states that if have any work done no matter how minor it automatically rescinds your right to cancel. Pure trickery and a few other non-descriptors.
Going from a seer 13 to a 16 can cost $2000 or more, do you have the potential to make that back? If you live up north and only need the AC 3 months and costs $100 a month to operate then the the new system will save you $90 a year or a 22 year payback. The durable goods lifetime on a new AC is only 13 years - you lose. If you pay $200 a month then its a 11 year payback, kinda iffy as cheaper and better machines will come out before then.
If you live in the south and pay $200 a month for 6 months ($2400) then you can potentially save $720 a year making it a 3 year payback, which is a good deal and no brainier. Don't buy service contracts, make them include at least the first year or 2 in the purchase price but only after you agree on initial price first and no signed contract yet (then cancel when done). I would not take it as most things that break do so in the first year and is already warrantied for parts and labor. Other things like compressors normally have a 10 year warranty and no labor but they have a cheaper contract just for that - normally required by the manufacture to be a distributor but seldom disclosed.
You can not go into any negotiations unless or until you know what your real AC operating costs are, guessing does not work - a water heater or stove may over inflate your guesstimated savings potential by twofold (twice the payback but really only half). When paying an average of $7000 its best to get it right.
Lastly, do not allow any contractor show you equipment or prices until he does a manual J heat load calculation, it is fairly complicated and takes an hour or two by a complete walk thru and measurements finalized by a computer program, without it you could end up with a pile of squat with no recourse. An over sized AC will cost more to operate, not cool efficiently, cost more to install, and fail early, an undersized one will run all the time but is much better than one too big - get the manual J and have it sized right, just because you have a 3 ton unit now doesn't mean you need a 3 ton in its place - most were over-sized years back.
Even though my HVAC contractor licence has expired (I no longer do it) I am still registered with the state - you can and should look up any potential contractor by getting his number - it should be on his truck or business card, if he won't give it to you steer far and wide.
Sorry this got out of hand and couldn't stop, I was on a roll and my keyboard is slanted downhill.
With the federal and state tax credit money hung out like a carrot in front of a mule contractors and stores are only happy to take your money, problem is they don't always have your best interest in mind. They may not come out with a bold face lie, but they can also leave out the truth.
As an example, A new air conditioner that meets the government seer 16 rating is eligible for the $2500 tax credit, nope - the entire system has to be certified by manufacture specs - you will need a copy for the IRS when called on. What does that mean? well you can buy that fancy new machine but unless you also already have or upgrade to a new air handler that has a multistage blower system your tax credit will be negated - try to fool the feds and that $2500 credit just turned into a $5000 house lien because of interest and penalties, not to mention IRS fraud which will stick to you like BP oil on a penguin (bad analogy but you know what I mean).
Contractors want to sell you that $5000 air conditioner but also know you need a new $5000 air handle to make the credit requirements, they do offer you both at $10,000 but you say that is too much and only want the AC . They won't tell you that by itself it is not available for the credit - so they did not lie. This happens at least a thousand times a month in the USA. You won't know until tax time either unless you verify before signing anything.
All new systems be them air conditioners, heat pumps, or mini-splits need a multi-stage or variable frequency drive air handler - not a multi-speed or tapped blower. All things considered multi-staged and VFD's are much more efficient then speed tapped blowers in the right application, A bad install will screw up the best of equipment and a good install can make a house brand look great. Check references please.
Also most people are unaware or don't understand the 3 day rule of rescission, it mostly only applies to contractors who "cold call" on you, meaning you did not call them first. Regardless they will still try to get you to sign a waiver of the 3 day rule, usually jumbled up in a bunch of other micro print legalese and it will hold up in court.
Worst of all are the predators who offer a cheap service by installing a $5 air filter then brow beats you into a $2000 duct cleaning service but a few days later you call to cancel and can't because they know that law states that if have any work done no matter how minor it automatically rescinds your right to cancel. Pure trickery and a few other non-descriptors.
Going from a seer 13 to a 16 can cost $2000 or more, do you have the potential to make that back? If you live up north and only need the AC 3 months and costs $100 a month to operate then the the new system will save you $90 a year or a 22 year payback. The durable goods lifetime on a new AC is only 13 years - you lose. If you pay $200 a month then its a 11 year payback, kinda iffy as cheaper and better machines will come out before then.
If you live in the south and pay $200 a month for 6 months ($2400) then you can potentially save $720 a year making it a 3 year payback, which is a good deal and no brainier. Don't buy service contracts, make them include at least the first year or 2 in the purchase price but only after you agree on initial price first and no signed contract yet (then cancel when done). I would not take it as most things that break do so in the first year and is already warrantied for parts and labor. Other things like compressors normally have a 10 year warranty and no labor but they have a cheaper contract just for that - normally required by the manufacture to be a distributor but seldom disclosed.
You can not go into any negotiations unless or until you know what your real AC operating costs are, guessing does not work - a water heater or stove may over inflate your guesstimated savings potential by twofold (twice the payback but really only half). When paying an average of $7000 its best to get it right.
Lastly, do not allow any contractor show you equipment or prices until he does a manual J heat load calculation, it is fairly complicated and takes an hour or two by a complete walk thru and measurements finalized by a computer program, without it you could end up with a pile of squat with no recourse. An over sized AC will cost more to operate, not cool efficiently, cost more to install, and fail early, an undersized one will run all the time but is much better than one too big - get the manual J and have it sized right, just because you have a 3 ton unit now doesn't mean you need a 3 ton in its place - most were over-sized years back.
Even though my HVAC contractor licence has expired (I no longer do it) I am still registered with the state - you can and should look up any potential contractor by getting his number - it should be on his truck or business card, if he won't give it to you steer far and wide.
i am thinking about saving cost and energy. want to get a tankless water heater. i would like to have a solar water heater too, but heard that u need a stoage tank for the solar heater. not sure if i can combine the two. anyone got an answer for me?
Mackay
Almost Self-Reliant
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2008
- Messages
- 1,332
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 128
My plumber who is a pretty smart guy hates the tankless water heater. He says they have too many problems.
He recommends a solar hot water system with electric or gas hotwater heater to bring it fully up to temp, at least in our very cold winters,, that will produce a savings on electric costs to about 50%. If the SHTF and there is no electric we will just have to bear with water temps of 70 in the winter and 90 to 100 in the summer... not bad considering it gets 20 below here frequently, and today, last day of Oct I got up to 26 degrees.
He recommends a solar hot water system with electric or gas hotwater heater to bring it fully up to temp, at least in our very cold winters,, that will produce a savings on electric costs to about 50%. If the SHTF and there is no electric we will just have to bear with water temps of 70 in the winter and 90 to 100 in the summer... not bad considering it gets 20 below here frequently, and today, last day of Oct I got up to 26 degrees.
fletcher8la
Sustainable Newbie
Thanks actually my friends son is doing project on that i will tell me the details which you have given it will help him on doing the project.Thanks
Niele da Kine
Power Conserver
We have a Bosch Aquastar and it does well for us. Better than the Paloma 16 which we had before since the Aquastar will start and run on a lower volume of hot water. I think the Paloma was too big for what we were using it for. They are sometimes called "on demand" water heaters since they only heat the water as you demand it. If you just turn the hot water tap on a little trickle, most of the tankless type of water heaters won't start up. That's not generally a problem, though, unless you had some really restrictive water systems in place. We are running a shower, bath tub and kitchen sink with the unit and we generally don't run more than one fixture at a time. So far I haven't attached the hot water to the washing machine, that will be an upcoming project.Mark-ln said:
