Hey, Who's Up For Some Higher Electric Bills?

[Wifezilla]

I've kept up with the technology over the years. Battery technology has vastly improved. It still isn't quite there yet. And artificially inflating other energy sources to make solar and wind look better really screws the poor. So yeah, I have a problem with the games being played in Washington.

When solar and wind tech is more plug and play, scaleable and consumer friendly, it will take off. Right now the tech is targeted towards huge government projects and designed to grab subsidies...not necessarily help individual consumers.

Sure you can get a solar panel from harbor freight, but how many average consumers could then hook it up and make it useful? When grandma can get a kit and plug it in in 5 minutes without blowing up her house, then you will have something.

Want a good insight in to how messed up renewable energy policy is? Check in to Oregon's current issues. I will see if I can find a link.

 

[patandchickens]

So are you representing those who believe in using unicorn farts as a viable fuel source?

WZ, in all seriousness here, we can all read the thread. You were replying to Abi and referring to those who asked for cleaner energy sources. Not "unicorn farts".

You called those who have advocated for a shift away from dirtier-but-cheaper-and-already-extant coal-fired plants "stupid" and "mathematically challenged". (Also seem insistant on there being no other alternative than unicorn farts )

That's not very nice and I'd ask you not to do it please.

Pat

 

[moolie]

I used to live in a province where almost 90% of the electricity generated is hydroelectric and has been since the 1950s. I'd say that's a pretty good track record for sustainable resources, where they are available.

That said, I realize that most areas don't have that much available water (like my own province on the other side of the Rockies from where I used to live) but here we have an abundance of wind and every year this province gets more and more of it's electricity from wind turbines.

When those dams were built in the first half of the 20th century I'm sure the technology wasn't perfect, or cheap, but people then had a vision and carried it out to the best of their ability. Things have been upgraded over the years and the system is sustainable. So much so that power is sold to the US.

Just an alternate view from someone who has lived within a more sustainable system, and who believes (unicorn farts aside) that a well-reasoned discussion would serve everyone far better than name-calling.

 

[k0xxx]

The big three alternative energy replacements for carbon based fuels are not viable with current technology. They problem with almost any alternative fuel, is that the environmental and energy costs to produce them are usually up front, where the consumer doesn't see them.

Hydroelectric is great, if you have the water resources. However, it does not come with out damage to the environment and aquatic life. You can also get screwed in times of drought.

Wind power is great if you have a consistent wind. However, it is claimed to be harmful to the avian population. There is a big "not in my backyard" mentality, especially it seems with the "elites". Just look at the Martha's Vineyard wind power debacle. Also, there's no way to store power for when the wind doesn't blow (on a marketable scale). Don't even get me started with the environmental hazards of battery manufacturing and disposal.

Solar is great if you live in an area with a lot of sunshine. It has a big carbon footprint is upfront. The manufacturing process creates takes a lot of energy, and any type of panels that can be currently mass produced creates problems during the process. Like wind energy, there's no way to store energy for when the sun isn't shining.

I'd discuss nuclear, but I don't want to start a flame war.

There are other sources out there, but on a marketable and industrial scale, they are even less viable. Unless society reverts back to an agrarian lifestyle and we give up our high tech toys (computers, tv's, etc.), depopulate the major cities, and probably depopulate the earth in general, there are currently no viable environmentally friendly energy sources out there. I wish that it were not so.

 

[Bubblingbrooks]

A company in Anchorage put up solar panels all over their building, and are boasting about how they give them 9% of the energy they use.
There is no way that they are saving anything.
They will never recoup of the cost of those panels and there upkeep.

Even those using wind up here in the high wind areas had to put out a huge expense for the materials. ANd that power is still a fraction of what is needed and used.

I also see very little talk about what goes into making solar panels. Petroleum anyone?

And as far as battery power, they have to be replaced every 10 years.
Alaskans know very well what a rip off alternative power is.
Far far better to truly be off off grid if you want to save money and not use petroleum or coal.

 

[patandchickens]

By far, hands-down, the best "alternative fuel" is radically reduced USAGE.

Yet somehow that is often disregarded a priori, as if obviously we *have* to keep using energy at approximately-current levels (and growing). (Disregarded both in this sort of discussion here and elsewhere, and on a larger societal scale). I don't mean "switch from incandescents to cfl's" or "turn off the computer when you're not using it"... I mean much more radical changes in the way our culture uses energy and manufactured/shipped/discarded Stuff.


Pat

 

[abifae]

Yeh. I was talking to someone the other day about utilies bills and I said, what are you willing to give up, then?

*silence*

 

[Bubblingbrooks]

By far, hands-down, the best "alternative fuel" is radically reduced USAGE.

Yet somehow that is often disregarded a priori, as if obviously we *have* to keep using energy at approximately-current levels (and growing). (Disregarded both in this sort of discussion here and elsewhere, and on a larger societal scale). I don't mean "switch from incandescents to cfl's" or "turn off the computer when you're not using it"... I mean much more radical changes in the way our culture uses energy and manufactured/shipped/discarded Stuff.


Pat

We hear from our electric company that since they have seen a deduction in usage, that they have to raise rates in order to stay afloat.
The ten percent reduction we saw from installing the all house surge protector we were given has been negated already.

And even worse, two families that were selected due to income to use a special energy system that reduced rates by over 50%, have now been told that they are no longer allowed to use the systems because they are too efficient.
The units were taken away from them.

 

[abifae]

We hear from our electric company that since they have seen a deduction in usage, that they have to raise rates in order to stay afloat.
The ten percent reduction we saw from installing the all house surge protector we were given has been negated already.

And even worse, two families that were selected due to income to use a special energy system that reduced rates by over 50%, have now been told that they are no longer allowed to use the systems because they are too efficient.
The units were taken away from them.

On the one hand, they are a business and supply & demand and the requirements of running their plant and all... on the other hand,

 

[FarmerChick]

When grandma can get a kit and plug it in in 5 minutes without blowing up her house, then you will have something.

the heck with grandma, I need it now!



yea the alternatives are not simple and cheap....and not user friendly for common folk in this world.