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Management practices to improve livestock food production~meat, eggs, milk, etc.
- Thread starter Beekissed
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milkmansdaughter
Super Self-Sufficient
@Beekissed and @farmerjan, I appreciate both viewpoints. I do not have the long term experience of either of you.
@farmerjan, I'm sorry you've had such a bad experience with free ranging! Where you free ranged your chickens, was it mostly open land where eagles had easy access? (I'm from dairy land, and envision open pasture land for your cows...) I have a much smaller flock than you had (about 30 right now, mostly layers, but some pullets, and some meat chickens), but there are a lot of trees on our property (pecan, oak, pine, mixed hard and soft). Hawks sit in the top of a dying tree right in the middle of the yard every day, but they don't have a big open area to easily get the chickens, and most of the chickens are smart enough to avoid the really open areas. They have a big open area (over an acre) in front of the house, and also a multi acre open field next to the property but the chickens rarely range there. The ones who do tend to be picked off pretty quick. They free range over about 6 acres, but they have access to much more (no dog, two roosters), no fences, with very few losses. They do have a coop that I close at night. (So maybe that's not technically free range
.)
We also have plenty of natural predators, but the worst, like you mentioned, have been dogs who show up just for the fun of it, often in packs. But owl, hawks, coyote, fox, coon, possums, snakes, etc are all common here.
I rarely buy pullets, preferring to have my own raised by a range savvy broody hen. They are out on the land usually by about 2 weeks old, and are scratching in dirt almost as soon as they are hatched. Our roosters have been raised here, and do their job well.
I usually don't have any food out during the day, and only feed in the late afternoon. Lately it's been extremely dry so they've gotten a little more food than normal. I try to only put out what they will eat about an hour or so before roosting, leaving as little as possible to invite other animals. The most I've lost in a day (so far in 3 years, and thanking God!) has been two, and that was to a 4 pack of stray dogs that had been in the neighborhood for weeks.
So admittedly, my experience is very limited, as I've only had chickens for 3 years. They could all be lost tomorrow. But so far, free ranging has worked very well for us.
@Beekissed, thanks for the videos and links! I have only just recently heard of Greg Judy, and his videos just seem to be common (maybe not-so-common) sense. And your chicken videos do too. I'm glad I read some of your stuff when we first got chickens. I'm convinced that it has saved us a lot of heartache, time, and money!
@farmerjan, I'm sorry you've had such a bad experience with free ranging! Where you free ranged your chickens, was it mostly open land where eagles had easy access? (I'm from dairy land, and envision open pasture land for your cows...) I have a much smaller flock than you had (about 30 right now, mostly layers, but some pullets, and some meat chickens), but there are a lot of trees on our property (pecan, oak, pine, mixed hard and soft). Hawks sit in the top of a dying tree right in the middle of the yard every day, but they don't have a big open area to easily get the chickens, and most of the chickens are smart enough to avoid the really open areas. They have a big open area (over an acre) in front of the house, and also a multi acre open field next to the property but the chickens rarely range there. The ones who do tend to be picked off pretty quick. They free range over about 6 acres, but they have access to much more (no dog, two roosters), no fences, with very few losses. They do have a coop that I close at night. (So maybe that's not technically free range
.) We also have plenty of natural predators, but the worst, like you mentioned, have been dogs who show up just for the fun of it, often in packs. But owl, hawks, coyote, fox, coon, possums, snakes, etc are all common here.
I rarely buy pullets, preferring to have my own raised by a range savvy broody hen. They are out on the land usually by about 2 weeks old, and are scratching in dirt almost as soon as they are hatched. Our roosters have been raised here, and do their job well.
I usually don't have any food out during the day, and only feed in the late afternoon. Lately it's been extremely dry so they've gotten a little more food than normal. I try to only put out what they will eat about an hour or so before roosting, leaving as little as possible to invite other animals. The most I've lost in a day (so far in 3 years, and thanking God!) has been two, and that was to a 4 pack of stray dogs that had been in the neighborhood for weeks.
So admittedly, my experience is very limited, as I've only had chickens for 3 years. They could all be lost tomorrow. But so far, free ranging has worked very well for us.
@Beekissed, thanks for the videos and links! I have only just recently heard of Greg Judy, and his videos just seem to be common (maybe not-so-common) sense. And your chicken videos do too. I'm glad I read some of your stuff when we first got chickens. I'm convinced that it has saved us a lot of heartache, time, and money!
Mini Horses
Sustainability Master
Even with a fenced area, my chickens "free" range. Those rascals can go over a fence! They are normally one or two, because they CAN roam several fenced acres anytime they want. My heavier girls don't want to jump as much. 
I have several roosters who alert.
I have had the one or two roamers taken a couple times, a watchful fox or hawk gets them. Most will stay closer to the coop -- which I DO CLOSE THEM INTO at night. MY biggest predators are mostly night hunting possum, fox or owl. Lost my guineas to the owl! Told them, IN the coop not ON the coop roof. Wouldn't listen.
The area in which you live will be HUGE in how your birds can live (or not) free range. I have some trees. I do not have a dog. But, I do have mini horses and large goats moving all day...chickens among them or their fields, often in their sheds. This does help to discourage the type predator I have to some degree. Night...no help because goats & horses are in their barns. Chickens are but, door closed! It's my way and what works here.
I have several roosters who alert.I have had the one or two roamers taken a couple times, a watchful fox or hawk gets them. Most will stay closer to the coop -- which I DO CLOSE THEM INTO at night. MY biggest predators are mostly night hunting possum, fox or owl. Lost my guineas to the owl! Told them, IN the coop not ON the coop roof. Wouldn't listen.
The area in which you live will be HUGE in how your birds can live (or not) free range. I have some trees. I do not have a dog. But, I do have mini horses and large goats moving all day...chickens among them or their fields, often in their sheds. This does help to discourage the type predator I have to some degree. Night...no help because goats & horses are in their barns. Chickens are but, door closed! It's my way and what works here.
Britesea
Sustainability Master
I live in a area that is reputed to have the largest population of bald eagles in the lower 48. They are beautiful, but I get nervous when I see one hanging around the yard; we aren't allowed to shoot them of course. So far, we've only lost one bird (a duck) to aerial attack in 5 years of raising birds. We lost a couple others to the neighbor's dog until I helped her figure out how her dog was getting out. I have seen raccoons outside the property, but so far (knocking on wood here) I've never seen any indications of them coming into the yard- not even a knocked over trash can. The only idea I have is that our LGD patrols her little half acre religiously, and we have lots of trees, shrubs, and other shelters. (I made a "pergola" in one area out of a pallet and some 2x4's to give them another place to shelter in).
Lazy Gardener
Super Self-Sufficient
Good and varied opinions about free range, what it means to different folks, and how, or if it's being accomplished safely in any given homesteading or commercial yard.
To educate the uneducated consumer who has some Polly Anna-ish vision of a bunch of hens happily tiptoeing through the tulips to the sound of music: Here's the USDA definition of "free range eggs":
The USDA's definition of “free range” for eggs is that they are “produced by hens housed in a building, room, or area that allows for … continuous access to the outdoors during their laying cycle. The outdoor area may be fenced and/or covered with netting-like material.”Apr 25, 2017
Now, compare the USDA definition to the idealistic idea of the hens who are tiptoeing through the tulips. In a commercial operation, those hens are housed in HUGE chicken houses that contain THOUSANDS of hens. By definition, if there is a pop door open somewhere in that building, those hens are free range. Now, we all know that chickens are flock animals. They do not live in flocks of THOUSANDS. Animal behaviorists state that a hen at the very most recognizes perhaps flock members up to 100. Any birds outside of that number, and outside of the range of that 100 birds who a hen associates with in the hen house are considered to be strangers. (typically, each hen has about 1 s.f. of space to live in, though those standards are being modified a bit.) So, the hen at one end of that building is never going to pass through the many thousands of strange hens to approach a pop door that most likely she's never seen, and most likely doesn't know even exists to step out into the sunshine.
So, IMHO: Free range is at best a dubious term, being thrown around with little thought to how the perception of what it means varies from one person to the next. Some suburban folks can "free range" their flock within the confines of their fenced yard. A lucky hen in such circumstances has access to shrubbery, mulched areas, gardens, lawns. The unlucky suburban FR hen has only closely manicured grass which is heavily sprayed to kill all "weeds" and insects.
Some folks say their flock is "supervised" FR. Those birds are let out only when the owner is present to protect them from predators. We all know that life gets in the way of ideals. If I depended on my time to supervise, my birds would not have much yard time! Not to mention, a fox or hawk can swoop in and grab a bird from under my nose. I've encountered fox, coon, and hawk, all within 30' of where I stood in my yard.
Electronet, or tape/wire strand electric fences provide a layer of protection. LGD provide a SIGNIFICANT layer of protection. And a standard covered run, if large enough, or a tractor, if LARGE, and moved often enough to give the flock fresh grass every day are IMO far better than the USDA's reality of what a free range chicken is.
Much can be done to enhance the options for the confined chicken: Deep composting litter, availability to sprouts, rotated run areas so the birds are not always on the same ground. Even a run within a run can be used to advantage. I have a 500 s.f. deep composting COVERED run which is then enveloped by a 164 ft. electronet.
To educate the uneducated consumer who has some Polly Anna-ish vision of a bunch of hens happily tiptoeing through the tulips to the sound of music: Here's the USDA definition of "free range eggs":
The USDA's definition of “free range” for eggs is that they are “produced by hens housed in a building, room, or area that allows for … continuous access to the outdoors during their laying cycle. The outdoor area may be fenced and/or covered with netting-like material.”Apr 25, 2017
Now, compare the USDA definition to the idealistic idea of the hens who are tiptoeing through the tulips. In a commercial operation, those hens are housed in HUGE chicken houses that contain THOUSANDS of hens. By definition, if there is a pop door open somewhere in that building, those hens are free range. Now, we all know that chickens are flock animals. They do not live in flocks of THOUSANDS. Animal behaviorists state that a hen at the very most recognizes perhaps flock members up to 100. Any birds outside of that number, and outside of the range of that 100 birds who a hen associates with in the hen house are considered to be strangers. (typically, each hen has about 1 s.f. of space to live in, though those standards are being modified a bit.) So, the hen at one end of that building is never going to pass through the many thousands of strange hens to approach a pop door that most likely she's never seen, and most likely doesn't know even exists to step out into the sunshine.
So, IMHO: Free range is at best a dubious term, being thrown around with little thought to how the perception of what it means varies from one person to the next. Some suburban folks can "free range" their flock within the confines of their fenced yard. A lucky hen in such circumstances has access to shrubbery, mulched areas, gardens, lawns. The unlucky suburban FR hen has only closely manicured grass which is heavily sprayed to kill all "weeds" and insects.
Some folks say their flock is "supervised" FR. Those birds are let out only when the owner is present to protect them from predators. We all know that life gets in the way of ideals. If I depended on my time to supervise, my birds would not have much yard time! Not to mention, a fox or hawk can swoop in and grab a bird from under my nose. I've encountered fox, coon, and hawk, all within 30' of where I stood in my yard.
Electronet, or tape/wire strand electric fences provide a layer of protection. LGD provide a SIGNIFICANT layer of protection. And a standard covered run, if large enough, or a tractor, if LARGE, and moved often enough to give the flock fresh grass every day are IMO far better than the USDA's reality of what a free range chicken is.
Much can be done to enhance the options for the confined chicken: Deep composting litter, availability to sprouts, rotated run areas so the birds are not always on the same ground. Even a run within a run can be used to advantage. I have a 500 s.f. deep composting COVERED run which is then enveloped by a 164 ft. electronet.
PatriciaPNW
Lovin' The Homestead
Thank you! It can’t hurt and I had never thought of “prenatal” hen care but it makes sense. I make sure broody hens have food and water close by and put them in a wire-enclosed area because I think it makes them more likely to stay the course. Starting with the eggs themselves makes sense too.
- Thread starter
- #27
Beekissed
Mountain Sage
My old dog, Lucy, an Akbash would also leap at aerial preds....the eagles would land in the next field to feed on dead chickens from the chicken litter spread on hay fields but they never bothered with live chickens ranging in the next field over.
Ben also is death on aerial predators and got cut on the muzzle from a great horned owl while defending the flock.
A good dog is imperative if someone wants to truly free range birds, plus having places for the birds to run to and hide, and birds that know enough to do so.
Ben also is death on aerial predators and got cut on the muzzle from a great horned owl while defending the flock.
A good dog is imperative if someone wants to truly free range birds, plus having places for the birds to run to and hide, and birds that know enough to do so.
- Thread starter
- #30
Beekissed
Mountain Sage
Some powerful information from Greg Judy on pasture and soil development strategies:
CrealCritter
Sustainability Master
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We call our chickens yard hussies ain't that right bee?
farmerjan
Super Self-Sufficient
@Beekissed I will respond to your response to my comments. I was referring to the "know it all" people in my particular neighborhood, not to people here on this site. You were not a target.
Maybe your bald eagles do not bother your birds and for that I am glad. The ones here have become not only a pain to the small chicken owners, but are actually becoming a problem at the truck stop right off the interstate a couple of miles away.
The only way I could stop the predation by the eagle was to keep them locked in. Shooting the eagle was not an alternative, or he would have been long since disposed of. There are several farmers in the county west of me that call them bald headed vultures due to the problems they have with eagles and their newborn calves. They will attack cows having newborn calves, and attack and kill the calves. SEEN IT. Had a conservation officer that actually did dispose of an eagle that had targeted a farm that was calving their cows out within an acre of the barn and such to try to prevent it.
My birds that are in "chicken tractors" are not in a dirty pen that is overcrowded and never moved. They were moved around the garden, with plenty of soil to dig in, and added their manure to the garden. Or on the lawn and moved daily so they always had fresh grass and did not kill the soil or the organisms. They are not being overcrowded and baked under a tin roof with no more than a 10x10 space to move in. I do not keep the meat birds in a chicken tractor. Only my individual purebred show birds that I mate for egg saving. I have some of the "old breeds" New Hamps and different colors of Large Langshans. Also have had many other breeds over the years.
The trailers that the layers were in were out in the pasture but were not that far from the edge of the woods. I never had more than an occasional lost bird, except for the pack of dogs, until the eagle moved into the area. The birds would go out and spend the better part of the day outside, except to come back in to lay and get water. The cows liked to play with the 5 gal waterers, so they were kept inside. The chickens spent a good part of their time scratching through all the cow patties in the field. Yes they had free choice feed in the coops, but I fed less than half of what they were "supposed to eat" because they were free ranging.
The birds got so they were scared of any and every shadow that crossed the sky because of the eagle. I had conservation people, the extension office, you name it, they were there.... to try to come up with an alternative to the miserable eagle. I sat there and used the shotgun to scare the stupid bird off, trying to convince it that this was not his private free meal smorgasboard. I would not let them out til late afternoon when I could stay there "babysitting". My birds are pretty savvy, even the ones in the chicken tractors, to any shadows flying overhead and will duck right into the house part. Implying that I did not care about the birds was really uncalled for. Chicken tractors are good alternatives if they are used in the manner they are designed. The worms would have little mounds of soil where they had come up and taken down some of what the chickens leave behind so it is not a barren or smelly or poopy ground.
We've had a couple of guardian dogs. Had some of these know it all neighbors actually call the dog warden saying we were being cruel by making the poor dog stay out there with the animals. They took to feeding the dogs across the fence. I wish they had been Anatolians, to be more "protective" of their own space, maybe they would have bitten the dam neighbors....
I was in and out of there 2-4 times a day. The dogs were not neglected. Caught the one neighbor enticing the dog out through a spot in the fence to their house with canned food, which I did not feed them with. Had the law involved and actually filed charges against this neighbor. So I can speak with some experience.
The donkey used to run the eagle when it landed, even though I don't think he cared so much about the chickens, but about the calves. We also are having major problems with the black vultures during calving, and I have had them go after a just fresh cow and her calf as she is trying to clean it off. The eagle was hanging with that group sometimes too.
So I am glad that your birds are in an environment that they are safe from most all predators. I hope that you never do have to deal with what we have dealt with. There were no untruths in my response to your post, and the bitter bile was because there were no alternatives to the situation we were dealing with.
I have successfully free ranged hundreds of birds over the years. But there are areas/times that it just doesn't work.
My current situation has my cornish x free ranging on some mostly brushy wooded ground and they are 8 weeks when I get them and been raised inside up until then. They need about 3 days to get with the program and learn about going out to scratch and run and grab bugs. I nearly fell over laughing at 2 that wanted the same bug and they were chasing each other trying to get the bug and one was trying to stop to eat it and the other would grab it and run in the other direction. These birds are not near where the eagle was the problem. The only fence they have is to keep them away from the road on one side, because there is alot of traffic and I don't need them out there.
Maybe your bald eagles do not bother your birds and for that I am glad. The ones here have become not only a pain to the small chicken owners, but are actually becoming a problem at the truck stop right off the interstate a couple of miles away.
The only way I could stop the predation by the eagle was to keep them locked in. Shooting the eagle was not an alternative, or he would have been long since disposed of. There are several farmers in the county west of me that call them bald headed vultures due to the problems they have with eagles and their newborn calves. They will attack cows having newborn calves, and attack and kill the calves. SEEN IT. Had a conservation officer that actually did dispose of an eagle that had targeted a farm that was calving their cows out within an acre of the barn and such to try to prevent it.
My birds that are in "chicken tractors" are not in a dirty pen that is overcrowded and never moved. They were moved around the garden, with plenty of soil to dig in, and added their manure to the garden. Or on the lawn and moved daily so they always had fresh grass and did not kill the soil or the organisms. They are not being overcrowded and baked under a tin roof with no more than a 10x10 space to move in. I do not keep the meat birds in a chicken tractor. Only my individual purebred show birds that I mate for egg saving. I have some of the "old breeds" New Hamps and different colors of Large Langshans. Also have had many other breeds over the years.
The trailers that the layers were in were out in the pasture but were not that far from the edge of the woods. I never had more than an occasional lost bird, except for the pack of dogs, until the eagle moved into the area. The birds would go out and spend the better part of the day outside, except to come back in to lay and get water. The cows liked to play with the 5 gal waterers, so they were kept inside. The chickens spent a good part of their time scratching through all the cow patties in the field. Yes they had free choice feed in the coops, but I fed less than half of what they were "supposed to eat" because they were free ranging.
The birds got so they were scared of any and every shadow that crossed the sky because of the eagle. I had conservation people, the extension office, you name it, they were there.... to try to come up with an alternative to the miserable eagle. I sat there and used the shotgun to scare the stupid bird off, trying to convince it that this was not his private free meal smorgasboard. I would not let them out til late afternoon when I could stay there "babysitting". My birds are pretty savvy, even the ones in the chicken tractors, to any shadows flying overhead and will duck right into the house part. Implying that I did not care about the birds was really uncalled for. Chicken tractors are good alternatives if they are used in the manner they are designed. The worms would have little mounds of soil where they had come up and taken down some of what the chickens leave behind so it is not a barren or smelly or poopy ground.
We've had a couple of guardian dogs. Had some of these know it all neighbors actually call the dog warden saying we were being cruel by making the poor dog stay out there with the animals. They took to feeding the dogs across the fence. I wish they had been Anatolians, to be more "protective" of their own space, maybe they would have bitten the dam neighbors....
I was in and out of there 2-4 times a day. The dogs were not neglected. Caught the one neighbor enticing the dog out through a spot in the fence to their house with canned food, which I did not feed them with. Had the law involved and actually filed charges against this neighbor. So I can speak with some experience.
The donkey used to run the eagle when it landed, even though I don't think he cared so much about the chickens, but about the calves. We also are having major problems with the black vultures during calving, and I have had them go after a just fresh cow and her calf as she is trying to clean it off. The eagle was hanging with that group sometimes too.
So I am glad that your birds are in an environment that they are safe from most all predators. I hope that you never do have to deal with what we have dealt with. There were no untruths in my response to your post, and the bitter bile was because there were no alternatives to the situation we were dealing with.
I have successfully free ranged hundreds of birds over the years. But there are areas/times that it just doesn't work.
My current situation has my cornish x free ranging on some mostly brushy wooded ground and they are 8 weeks when I get them and been raised inside up until then. They need about 3 days to get with the program and learn about going out to scratch and run and grab bugs. I nearly fell over laughing at 2 that wanted the same bug and they were chasing each other trying to get the bug and one was trying to stop to eat it and the other would grab it and run in the other direction. These birds are not near where the eagle was the problem. The only fence they have is to keep them away from the road on one side, because there is alot of traffic and I don't need them out there.
