propane vs. solar appliances

[Nifty]

I'd do some kind of gas for anything that relies primarily on "heat" and then use solar for the stuff like laptops, etc. Converting light, to electricity, to heat is very inefficient and won't be able to compete with gas on price.

 

[animalfarm]

I grew up in a time warp. ( and no I am not 100 yrs old yet ) No electricity, no in- door plumbing, and wood heating. Everyone had a cook stove and a separate wood stove in the living room. Cook stoves don't throw that much heat around. I used to lean against it. I don't recall if it was too hot in the summer; things were just what they were. I don't think air- conditioning was even a word then. (1970s) If you can't stand the heat and need to get out of the kitchen, a simple outdoor propane burner and a home made outdoor oven or solar oven will do the trick. Lots of baking can be done in a dutch oven with coals.

I have wind and solar. You will need batteries since the sun may not shine for days particularly in the winter but summer too. Winter days are mighty short as well. You learn to turn things off. A fridge doesn't take that much juice, but you must weigh the cost of the equipment for a solar + battery system against what you think the cost of propane will be in the forseeable future and also decide whether you will be buying or leasing the tank. Pros and cons there as well.

Propane will probably have lower more doable start up costs + you can also use an on demand water heater. You cannot run an electric hot water heater or clothes dryer on solar without a goodly # of solar panels and batteries. An inverter maxes out at 6000W and an electric water heater draws up to 3000W and a clothes dryer eats up 5000W which is almost too much on its own and definitly too much with anything else running and a second inverter would be needed. Inverters are very expensive. The ave. Joe including me do not have a 2nd one. You also need to be generating a 'h' of a lot of electricity and that means you have won the lottery and none of this matters because you can afford 40 solar panels and a 2nd inverter. Dryers are usually propane if you are off grid.

You must also consider that another energy hog is a toaster so think carefully about what you actually use in your house. The list you gave is certainly not a problem, but are you sure you accounted for everything? Most things can be managed by judicial timing of when they are used.

Another thing to consider is the washing machine. You must be careful about what definition of energy efficiency the manufactures are using.

A washing machine doesn't draw a lot of electricity in general, but an energy efficient front loader is energy efficient for WATER NOT ELECTRICITY. A front loader runs about 50-120 min depending upon cycle but doesn't use much water. One of the old style top loaders runs a 20-40 min cycle saving loads of electricity but wasting boatloads of water + its half the price of the front loader. More math.

 

[bibliophile birds]

thanks animalfarm! great points.

i'd really rather not have to bring in outside fuel but i know i can't afford a huge solar array. i'm HEAVILY leaning towards a wood stove for many many reasons.

ok, here is my "I should know that" question about solar charged battery arrays: when a solar panel system is rated 45w and you have it hooked to a battery bank, what exactly does the 45w mean? is it the rate that it charges the batteries? is it how much energy it will provide in a day? if you had a 45w array hooked to 4 daisy chained batteries how much energy would you feasibly be able to pull?

luckily, i'm not interested in a dryer. i'm happy to hang-dry clothes. i'm also not really interested in a hot water heater. i'm looking into a combination of passive solar heat and just heating water the old fashioned way.

no toaster.

 

[SKR8PN]

BB.......I have a question about your floor plans. Did you happen to throw that tape measure up into the rafters to see how much head room there is up there? Reason I am asking, is it did not appear to be very tall at all in the other pictures you provided of the house. Might be something you want to check on before you dedicate floor space to a staircase.........

 

[bibliophile birds]

sure didn't measure to the rafters. i think it's about 6 feet at the peak. i really just threw the stairs in to see how it would break the room up. it's much more likely that, if the loft happens, the stairs will be much more ladder like.

 

[Bubblingbrooks]

sure didn't measure to the rafters. i think it's about 6 feet at the peak. i really just threw the stairs in to see how it would break the room up. it's much more likely that, if the loft happens, the stairs will be much more ladder like.

You can also do a spiral stair. Just keep in mind getting furniture up there.

 

[animalfarm]

Bibliophile birds

I have 8- 176w panels. The way I understand it, it means they are capable under ideal conditions of generating 176w of electricity per hour each. They actually only produce at 80% efficiency during ideal conditions so just how much E. is being produced is a bit of a crap shoot. On a good day I get about 7000w of electricity total. The more batteries you have, the more juice you store so the # of batteries you need depends on the type of battery and how much juice you use on a daily basis. Start with your 4 batteries and either it works out or you will need to add another panel, another battery, or adjust your needs downwards even more.

 

[bibliophile birds]

You can also do a spiral stair. Just keep in mind getting furniture up there.

the only things that would be going up in the loft would be some bookshelves (built in) and a futon type sitting/sleeping arrangement. the loft will basically be a reading room and extra guest bed when it's needed. VERY minimal and basic.

A 45w panel is not very big. The more batteries you have storing the electricity, the better so you can stay ahead of the game.

I run my water pump several hours/day to water stock.

I don't know how your wood supply is, but here that is the one thing I don't have much of and bringing wood in costs as much as propane and requires a lot of physical labour that I just don't have time for.

i was asking about the 45w system because i can get one from Harbor Freight for very little- sometimes as little as $150- in which case i would PROBABLY get two. i want a small system to keep costs down but also so i'm not too tempted to take the easy route. i'm trying really hard to simplify.

i don't think i'd need a water pump at all. the house will have a catchment tank all to itself, and the barn will have another tank to itself. plus, the creek runs directly through the barnyard. there is a well sunk next to the house, so if it came down to it, i could hook a pump up if i needed to.

my wood supply is just fine. about 75% of the farm is wooded so it's just a matter of getting in there and pulling the dead stuff out. lucky for me, i have a couple young male cousins (and their buddies) who love an excuse to chop wood. we have a log splitter that runs off the PTO on the tractor, so wood shouldn't be a problem.

 

[animalfarm]

Bibliophile birds,

I edited my last post to actually answer the question you were asking. I kind of missed the boat on that one. Sorry.

 

[bibliophile birds]

Bibliophile birds,

I edited my last post to actually answer the question you were asking. I kind of missed the boat on that one. Sorry.

don't be sorry. i'm glad i got to read the first version because it actually gave me more things to think about. it's easy to forget things that you HAVE to consider because in a "normal" house they are so hidden and you don't think about them.

for the past few days i've been jotting down what appliances i actually use and how often. i'm hoping that will help me figure out exactly what i really really need and what i can get away without.

anyone have a good idea about how much power toaster ovens take to run? i'm feeling like a LOT but mine is in storage right now so i can't look at it. i was thinking that might be one idea to avoid firing up the cook stove in summer.