R Preppers the New Terrorists? FBI 2 watch Military Surplus Stores..

[k0xxx]

...It's just like with having guns. by all means own guns. But does the regular homeowner really need AK47s? or machine guns? or really anything beyond a hunting rifle, a shotgun and a pistol? After all, you only have two hands, so theoretically you can only hold and fire two guns at one time but, thats another topic ...

Warning - Soap Box Rant! Danger Will Robinson ! ! !

This is not directed specifically at you, colowyo0809, but to the "hunting" argument in general.

Ok, here is the reason why I am probably already on several watch lists. Yes, I believe that the regular homeowner needs AK-47's and machine guns. The Second Amendment is not about hunting. The founding fathers of this country recognized that one of our basic human rights endowed upon us by our Creator was to be secure in ones person and ones property. That we all have the right to defend ourselves and our property from harm, theft, and tyranny. The Second Amendment was a re-affirmation of that right and a reminder to Government to keep their hands off of that right. It was the intention that the whole of the adult population be armed, as deterrent to Government overstepping its' boundaries and encroaching on our liberties.

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States."
Noah Webster, An Examination into the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, 1787

Hunting is a legitimate reason for owning firearms, but it is not the reason why we have the right. As for only having two hands, guns are nothing more than tools. Does anyone only have tools in a toolbox? I have a multiple guns, each with at least one specific purpose, a couple with multiple purposes, but none suitable for all purposes.

 

[colowyo0809]

...It's just like with having guns. by all means own guns. But does the regular homeowner really need AK47s? or machine guns? or really anything beyond a hunting rifle, a shotgun and a pistol? After all, you only have two hands, so theoretically you can only hold and fire two guns at one time but, thats another topic ...

Warning - Soap Box Rant! Danger Will Robinson ! ! !

This is not directed specifically at you, colowyo0809, but to the "hunting" argument in general.

Ok, here is the reason why I am probably already on several watch lists. Yes, I believe that the regular homeowner needs AK-47's and machine guns. The Second Amendment is not about hunting. The founding fathers of this country recognized that one of our basic human rights endowed upon us by our Creator was to be secure in ones person and ones property. That we all have the right to defend ourselves and our property from harm, theft, and tyranny. The Second Amendment was a re-affirmation of that right and a reminder to Government to keep their hands off of that right. It was the intention that the whole of the adult population be armed, as deterrent to Government overstepping its' boundaries and encroaching on our liberties.

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States."
Noah Webster, An Examination into the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, 1787

Hunting is a legitimate reason for owning firearms, but it is not the reason why we have the right. As for only having two hands, guns are nothing more than tools. Does anyone only have tools in a toolbox? I have a multiple guns, each with at least one specific purpose, a couple with multiple purposes, but none suitable for all purposes.

You are correct goodsir The 2nd amendment does give us the right to bare arms for protection as well as hunting. However, I don't agree with the whole ak-47s and machine guns in the homes thing. But, I will agree to peacefully disagree with you on that one Besides, I prefer the days before guns, when you had to get your hands bloody and really own what you did I've always felt that if I am going to do someone serious harm, up to and including taking their life, for whatever reason (they are mugging/breaking in/raping/assaulting) then I am going to immediately and forcefully know the true cost of my actions. The farther removed you are from your actions, the less personal consequences it has.

 

[savingdogs]

I don't see that guns were actually the topic here, I thought we were discussing the purchase of things such as night vision goggles and other items a TERRORIST might want to collect outside of guns. You won't have any argument from me about our right to bear arms.
*SD waves large American flag with gun tucked into back pocket....

I think that there are times and places for these types of lists and restrictions and we live in a country where we DO have a say in our laws and government. I have to believe that in a court of law, I will not be convicted of a crime like cooking meth because I have a little lye in my house, because I still DO live in the United States of America. Because I cannot be convicted of a crime I did not commit and for which there is no evidence. By the way, I purchased an extremely small amount of lye so this is kind of something I just bring up for the point of discussion, that I agree with the idea that people buying harmful substances and things that a terrorist would need should be watched. I'm more afraid of a terrorist than of my own government and don't want to hamstring the law enforcement officials by taking away their tools. I attended a "police citizen's academy" course while I was serving as a captain of our local neighborhood watch group and listened to the police officer's thoughtful discussion of the balance between law and individual rights, they took it EXTREMELY seriously. We give up certain things, such as the ability to drink alcohol and then drive, in order to live in a civilized society. That doesn't mean alcohol is illegal, just its MISUSE. While I don't want to turn this into a discussion on drug laws and such, but I do feel that keeping certain things out of the hands of certain people is to the benefit of all of society. Do you really think we shouldn't keep track of who has access to dangerous things? I have police officers who are my friends and I want them to be equipped to deal with the bad guys.

I was taught that these tools are just a way of collecting and evaluating facts. While I am for LESS government, LESS restrictions and LESS interference, public safety is one area that I do feel that law enforcement needs to have the citizens on its side and not working at cross purposes to protect themselves. This is why we have a system of voting. If you don't like how it is, get more involved like ICU4Dzs has, so the laws stay balanced between the need to have rights and the need for society to have rules.

I really have no argument with the fact that we are concerned about WHAT is on that list....I certainly think it is terrible that so many of us worry that the government doesn't want us to own our own chickens and such. That doesn't mean I'm not personally disgusted with our current leaders and would like 80 percent of them thrown out. But I intend to do that at the voting booth to the best of my ability.

 

[k0xxx]

You are correct goodsir The 2nd amendment does give us the right to bare arms for protection as well as hunting. However, I don't agree with the whole ak-47s and machine guns in the homes thing. But, I will agree to peacefully disagree with you on that one Besides, I prefer the days before guns, when you had to get your hands bloody and really own what you did I've always felt that if I am going to do someone serious harm, up to and including taking their life, for whatever reason (they are mugging/breaking in/raping/assaulting) then I am going to immediately and forcefully know the true cost of my actions. The farther removed you are from your actions, the less personal consequences it has.

I will respectfully disagree with your opinion of pre-firearm days. True as it may be that you were more aware of the true cost of your actions, it also enabled the weak to be preyed upon by the strong. While firearms haven't rectified that situation, they have provided a means for the weak to better defend themselves.

I don't see that guns were actually the topic here, I thought we were discussing the purchase of things such as night vision goggles and other items a TERRORIST might want to collect outside of guns. You won't have any argument from me about our right to bear arms.

Recently the Justice Dept. has told gun stores in particular areas to start collecting the names of those that purchase certain types of guns or certain amounts of guns. These purchasers, by exercising a God given right re-affirmed by the constitution, have their names are put onto yet another government list. Hence the connection.

 

[sunsaver]

I read the FBI checklist and it sounds to me like they are just trying to teach people how to identify the profile of a terrorist. They are trying to prevent terrorist attacks on US soil. Sometimes an orange is just an orange. We don't need to read a conspiracy into everything the government does. The government rarely considers how it's actions will be perceived by the outside world or the American public. They are often very clueless in that regard.
And if they want to "watch" me, they will get pretty bored. "Sir, all he does is water the garden all day or sit at the computer and pet his cat"
"what about all the canned food and MREs that he paid cash for?"
"Well sir, it appears that he is eating that stuff. He doesn't ever go to the grocery store. He even makes his own electricity!"
"That's so un-American to be independent and free! What a traitor to the American ideal of corporate slavery! Keep your eye on this guy, Private!"
"But sir, he's sooo boring..."
"No arguments soldier!"
"Sir! Yes Sir!"

 

[AnnaRaven]

I don't see that guns were actually the topic here, I thought we were discussing the purchase of things such as night vision goggles and other items a TERRORIST might want to collect outside of guns. You won't have any argument from me about our right to bear arms.
*SD waves large American flag with gun tucked into back pocket....

I think that there are times and places for these types of lists and restrictions and we live in a country where we DO have a say in our laws and government. I have to believe that in a court of law, I will not be convicted of a crime like cooking meth because I have a little lye in my house, because I still DO live in the United States of America. Because I cannot be convicted of a crime I did not commit and for which there is no evidence.

Unfortunately, since habeas corpus was suspended, you could be held as a terrorist for years until the government gets around to trying you.

 

[savingdogs]

I read the FBI checklist and it sounds to me like they are just trying to teach people how to identify the profile of a terrorist. They are trying to prevent terrorist attacks on US soil. Sometimes an orange is just an orange. We don't need to read a conspiracy into everything the government does. The government rarely considers how it's actions will be perceived by the outside world or the American public. They are often very clueless in that regard.
And if they want to "watch" me, they will get pretty bored. "Sir, all he does is water the garden all day or sit at the computer and pet his cat"
"what about all the canned food and MREs that he paid cash for?"
"Well sir, it appears that he is eating that stuff. He doesn't ever go to the grocery store. He even makes his own electricity!"
"That's so un-American to be independent and free! What a traitor to the American ideal of corporate slavery! Keep your eye on this guy, Private!"
"But sir, he's sooo boring..."
"No arguments soldier!"
"Sir! Yes Sir!"

You make that sound funny, but I think we are thinking along the same lines.

Annaraven, I hope that I never have to defend myself that way.......I really think they would find me too boring like Sunsaver suggested.

 

[i_am2bz]

Mark, I hope you don't mind that I reprint this here:

...I'm wondering if I should forget about the garden outside and set up my cellar with lights and start growing my veggies down there....

Sometime in the last several months I read a news story of someone doing that, the only exception was that he was growing veggies in his unused attic dormer. For his efforts he was on the receiving end of a police raid. It seems that the police were using thermal imaging cameras in an effort to locate people growing pot inside their homes. With no other evidence than the heat signature of his home, he was raided, he and his family were held at gun point, and then him and his wife handcuffed for three hours as his home was ransacked (er, I mean searched). The police doing an estimated $3k of damage to his home, including knocking his front door down with the hinges ripped out. After finding nothing, he was handed a business card and told to submit a bill for the front door as the they left.

If you decide to grow in the basement, I'd be sure to try out the new LED grow lights that don't produce a lot of heat. :/

THIS is what I worry about, folks...a government official who assumes I'm doing something illegal, & jumps in with both barrels blazing (literally or figuratively speaking). So if I have a heat signature in my house from growing tomato starts with a heat lamp, I have to prove I'm not growing pot? Is this really what our country has come to...? (Okay, don't answer that. )

 

[sunsaver]

I don't see that guns were actually the topic here, I thought we were discussing the purchase of things such as night vision goggles and other items a TERRORIST might want to collect outside of guns. You won't have any argument from me about our right to bear arms.
*SD waves large American flag with gun tucked into back pocket....

I agree with you too, SD. And i was trying to humorous by pointing out our how silly our government can be.

 

[MyKidLuvsGreenEgz]

Savingdogs, maybe you don't mind having your name on a government "watch list", but there are a lot of those that do. Why should anyone have their name placed on some government list, simply because they purchased a legally owned product. Sure, I have nothing to hide. But now we have lists for people that buy "night flashlights" (whatever the heck they are?), who express the same ideas of freedom that our founders did, who have a love for our Constitution, who are Christian and express a belief in the Bible, who pay in cash, who buy weather proof match holders, who have lost fingers to accidents, who have a Ron Paul bumper sticker, if you shave off a beard and visit the same store again (no, I'm not making that one up). Where does it stop? At what point does the Government just say, "You know, none of our citizens can be trusted". It seems that it's getting pretty close to that point now.

... or worse yet, those who are NOT christian and don't believe in the bible.

I just read both links, and am appalled. I live in Colorado. Why on earth were we singled out? This really bothers me, on so many levels. I buy camping supplies, like water purification tablets, etc. I buy flashlights (although I haven't noticed the packaging as to whether they are for day or night ... wtf?!?!). I buy dried fruit (because we don't have enough yet to dry myself and it's the easiest way to get berries and mango into my son) so since it's in bulk, is that considered militant? Survivalist? I write a preppers blog so does that mean that I'm on a watchlist too?

Last Spring and the one before that there was a HUGE heat signature in my home due to heat lamps for chicks. Now that we have broodies, that won't be necessary BUT I use grow lights to provide food for us in the winter: green beans, cucumbers, greens, tomatoes, etc. And living out in the country ... what do gubment people REALLY think when they see our heat signatures?

All of this nonsense bothers me up oneside and down the other.