Energy efficiency versus renewable/green energy?

[FarmerChick]

I was using teachers as an example. There are many others that waste energy. you can use any industry for examples

As for other countries, it is the developed and the quickly developing countries that use the most energy. US is about 5% of the world pop. and uses 25% of the world's energy. It is the per capita usage that is important. That is why the focus should be on them, first. They have the means to bring down their energy usage. Second, we should focus lesser developed countries. We need to help them develop in a way that is not as polluting. the US and other developed countries are doing their part, maybe not full speed to yours or mines liking, but is happening. And yet we say---we did this, and they can't have it. Doesn't work. We and other countries do not "truly rule and hold the world in resources in ours hands"

I use to live in Ghana and can tell you this country is not even close to using up all the world's energy. Over half the population doesn't even have electricity, running water or cars. yea and they would love to have it I am sure. just think of lives saved due to power and technology in their situation. Pretty much everyone else in the world lives like this. As for a school in Africa, most - unless in an urban area - don't even have electricity or enough chalk to write on the chalkboard. [bwe can bring it to them...is that right, yes and no. they are using others resources that we should maybe be saving our recourses.?][/b]In essence, most places do not have the luxury to have resources to reduce. and they want it, and we can't deny them that. in fact missionairies are there to bring them these conveniences that are basic to other countries lives....we can't go back to their way of improvished living, they must come forward

You can make an exception for Asia. China is a rapidly developing nation that is now the biggest contributor to CO2 emmision. Just behind the US. Per capita it is still way behind us and other developed countries but this is still a problem. They need to turn things around before it becomes a really big problem. they need to make that decision. their people overall must understand. one can not make policy for the world in generalMost policies are for making China like the US. You can't even bike in any major cities. Having over a billion people in cars spells trouble. you can only hope they see and do what is needed




When the time comes all people globally will see th catastrophe on their doorstep. No one can tell all how to live. No one will ever be perfect. there is no perfect solution to me. people use resources. they are limited and all want them. so...in the end, way down the road, it will be intersting to look back and point blame. the under priviledged who wante basic human lifestyle or the ones who had too much.


I

 

[Big Daddy]

You both make a lot of good points. Conserving energy with what we have right now is just as important as conserving energy with newer technology. It's a shame, but it seems like the best teacher for conservation is high prices. Before the gas price fiasco in summer 2008 everybody was sucking gas like it was water. There was an SUV in almost every driveway. Now the Suv's have dropped in value like rocks. People are using less gas and there is a huge shortage in tax revenue because of less gas used. If energy gets cheap again the use will go back up. There are a lot more people that are aware of energy and environmental issues than there used to be, but there are still plenty that don't get it yet.

China is probably the biggest worry out there right now. We keep pumping money into their manufacturing base and they keep pumping pollution into the atmosphere. They are just like the US was from the start of the industrial revolution until the late 60's when the EPA took hold. The only way China will clean up it's act is if their customers tell them too. Unfortunately the customers are US corporations and it would be against their interest to have China increase it's production cost by using anti pollution devices at their factories. They may clean it up when they don't have any air left to breathe. Remember how dirty the air was at the Olympics. Our athletes used mask's during their training to keep from trashing their lungs.

The human condition is truly sad. I don't think we'll be around much longer. Maybe another 200 years.

 

[Ldychef2k]

I just do what makes sense at the time. I don't have a philosophy about it. Basically, if it is expensive, I leave it alone. If it's cheap and easy and doesn't require a lot out of me, that's the thing I pick. So...without apology, I use a lot of styrofoam.

 

[DianeB]

You both make a lot of good points. Conserving energy with what we have right now is just as important as conserving energy with newer technology. It's a shame, but it seems like the best teacher for conservation is high prices. Before the gas price fiasco in summer 2008 everybody was sucking gas like it was water. There was an SUV in almost every driveway. Now the Suv's have dropped in value like rocks. People are using less gas and there is a huge shortage in tax revenue because of less gas used. If energy gets cheap again the use will go back up. There are a lot more people that are aware of energy and environmental issues than there used to be, but there are still plenty that don't get it yet.

The human condition is truly sad. I don't think we'll be around much longer. Maybe another 200 years.

I wanted to bring up price increase but it is very unpopular. My first thought was the gov't should just lift the subsidies on petroleum and coal? Right their the price of energy would more than double.

It would get everyone to dramatically cut their energy use. But at what cost? It would definately slow down our economy and make the unemployment rate even higher.

Price increase should be done just right. Perhaps a slow reduction of subsidies. Say 2-5% a year.

I know some OPEC is diliberately reducing output to increase oil prices during as economies slowed and consumption dropped.

This has made more people in my area ride bikes, the bus, walk and reduce trips to save on gas.

 

[patandchickens]

Because most people are just not interested in doing little things with basically-invisible effects, is why. And people are even *less* interested in doing little things with effects that change, in however tiny a way it may be, the way they live their lives.

Alas.

I actually think it would be quite challenging for humans to extirpate themselves from the planet in any relatively short time frame (not impossible, just unlikely -- although whether there will be Homo sapiens running around in another five thousand years I think is anyone's guess). But I do seriously believe that our children's children will probably be living in a much tougher world than ours (mainly in terms of war and pollution and resource shortages), and with on average a far harder life and lower 'standard of living' and shorter life expectancy; and I shouldn't be surprised if *their* childrens' children will look back on those days as being the *good* ones.

Or, maybe not. I sure hope not. It would be real nice if the human race got its act together enough to at least limit the damage being done, and have things just sort of tail off into a plateau instead of actually crashing. I do think it is *possible*.

Pat

 

[Big Daddy]

There's still too many people that refuse to acknowledge that we are having any kind of impact at all on the planet. If they save energy it is strictly for the monetary reasons. Look at all the grief some person got over improving energy efficiency in elderly and low income housing. We had a post on another thread about how a woman took advantage of that program and reduced her energy cost by 30% over last year. Of course I don't think she realized it was part of the stimulus being administered by her city. Every time Light Rail comes up, it usually gets shot down. It's very expensive in the short term. In the long term it about breaks even, but what does it save in pollution? It doesn't matter to a lot of people because it cost too much up front. Everybody talks about burning wood on here for heat. I have no idea how bad wood is compared to Propane or Gas. I do know that here on the front range they restrict wood burning on high pollution days. So how bad is it. I know it cost less but what is it doing to our air. Just a question. As I said I don't know what the comparison is.

I think you're right Pat. I think that in 60-100 years the air may not look so good. There is of course the chance that the oil will all be gone by then. They'll be doing a lot of drilling for shale oil and ruining our limited water supplies flushing it out. Of course we can still smother ourselves with coal exhaust and eventually nuclear will come back in as a major source. So we'll probably have a Chernobyl or 2. I do worry about my children. Between the current economy and the loss of our manufacturing base and all the jobs that go with it. Then there's going to be the environment and food supplies.

Well there's always CFL's

 

[DianeB]

Perhaps, as state gov'ts lose money they will push for more energy efficiency. Most subsidize the cost of energy in one way or another. Some of California's debt is a hold over from the energy crisis in 2000/2001. People forget that Grey Davis had to pay a few billion to Enron - when they were still around - to get enough energy to keep us lit.

I think state and local gov'ts will have to push for efficiency to stay in the red. Unfortunately, it would take someone like the gov't to change the way people use energy.

 

[FarmerChick]

You are right BD

we jump from one thing to another....pretending there is a fix.

there is not.

if we continue as is with the billions of humans using what they use---it is limited.



to me all life is limited.

limited in the fact the "big change" will happen.

and it will. thru the ions change comes big sometimes, dramatic, drastic, catastrophic. and it will again.


I don't think all humans "don't see the real big picture of the future"---I think that alot of humans "can't see it"----they can't go that far in their thinking-----it is too far away.


Say---oil will be gone in 15 years
Some will freak and look for alternatives.
others will implement conservation
others will cut back usage etc.
laws in effect limiting oil use, oil productions, etc.
others will NOT change their life one bit other than complain about laws that are enforced on them
others will despise the people who "have the oil"
others will feel what oil is out there, is not being used properly
others say I have money---I can buy what I need, even if top dollar and they do
others will feel that "the past generations" has killed us--how dare they


blame

and never once has anyone truly said---WE are all to blame.


to me, you can't win.
you never can truly win with "people being people"

 

[DianeB]

Don't have a defeitist attitude. This breaks my heart. Once people start giving up on changing things it is quickly downhill from there. It takes time and work, but people can and do change. It is not people being people but society holding onto an outdated and distructive ideaology.

I have faith that things can change. In the past, we didn't let women vote because society thought they were too delicate and unintelligent and needed men's protection. That changed. It took over 70 years from the Seneca Falls meeting for women to get the vote. Yet, along the way more women were admitted into college, started to take on 'male occupations', were given the right to hold property and sue for divorce. States allowed women rights before the federal gov't did.

Just as society changed its views on women, society can change their view on the enviroment.

P.S. Yes, there are a few idiots that will be selfish and do what they like no matter who it hurts. They are just horrible people. I believe their is a place for them.

 

[FarmerChick]

I am sure not a defeitist attitude.

it is reality.


I prefer reality.


every bit helps. absolutely to make change happen slowly along the way. I do it, I try and do my part...I tell my kid to do her part. I want edcuation out there. I hope.


but if in X years we can't breathe...what good is that slow change everyone will try to adapt too---and some won't.


a good speech is great---it might get some reaction and change , but it might not.


Until reality is "in your face" most changes happen very slowly. People can not and will not give up "what they know" and "how they want to live" until it is "in their face"

hey let's try though! I really am for it and change.






P.S. Yes, there are a few idiots that will be selfish and do what they like no matter who it hurts. They are just horrible people. I believe their is a place for them. I guess you have to hate and despise someone, right? whatever on this statement, I don't even know how to answer it.