Livestock Guardian Dogs

[Beekissed]

As many of us have such breeds or are contemplating them for future homesteading needs, I thought it would be nice to have a thread dedicated to them and folks who have them or breed them can contribute and teach us things.

Here's one of the best vids I've seen lately on LGDs...just a simple little vid that explains a few things and is very accurate.

 

[frustratedearthmother]

Good video in a lot of ways. My biggest objection to it is when she said you might have to keep a dog in the kennel, in the pasture with the critters for up to 18 months to 2 years. I know she wasn't talking about full-time...but if you can't trust your dog before 2 years then he's not doing much for you. My GP Maddie was with the stock full-time at 4 months. Cowboy was out at about the same age. He had Maddie to guide him so it worked well.

I remember when I was waiting to get Cowboy and everybody wanted to know which pup I was gonna get. Some warned me not to do this and not to do that... and I understand and appreciated all the advice I got. BUT, my belief is that you can't pigeon hole these dogs. Some are meant to be watchers - some are meant to be patrollers - some are hands on - some are 'big picture' dogs. You aren't going to change the instincts that are bred into the dog.

Learn your dog. Learn their strengths. Learn the weaknesses. Use the dog in the way that they can serve you best. Sometimes you just have to trust the dog to know what he's doing. Cowboy, when young, was a fence jumper - but he stopped and didn't jump for nearly 6 months. When he started jumping again it was because we had a bobcat that was taking baby pigs. After I 'allowed' him to jump out of his pasture into the neighbors pasture and mark that area - we didn't have another problem. He knew what he needed to do and he did it. Problem solved.

I think one of the most important things to look for in a pup is one that is submissive to the stock. My does even look sideways or shake their head and Maddie and/or Cowboy will basically hit the dirt. Cowboy loves the babies and has assigned himself to them. Wouldn't do much good to try to kick him out in the big pasture when we have babies in the barnyard because he wouldn't do anything but go back with the kids.

I've found Maddie curled around a doe that was trying to kid about 10 days early. She literally laid down next to this pygmy doe and stayed with her all night - sharing her body heat and keeping the other goats away. Most of the time Maddie is a "big-picture" LGD and doesn't interact personally with the goats - but that night she did. She did what she needed to do to take care of that doe.

I am constantly amazed. These dogs can be such amazing partners.

 

[goatgurl]

most people say you need a patroller and a watcher and that is pretty much what the Anatolians did. don't get me wrong I loved them and they worked well for years but when it came time to add a new dog to the herd I did some studying and learned the difference between a flock dog, like the maremma, and a lgd that patrols. the Anatolians covered the whole 60 acres and some say that is a good thing but I got to thinking that if they were out patrolling and something came after the sheep and goats the dogs would have to race thru thick brush and trees to save them whereas the maremma's stay right with the flock, always within sight of them. for the most part my property is pretty untamed and they just work better for me with the high predator load i have here. the way you describe ben's attitude i've always thought he took after his maremma relatives more than you think.

 

[goatgurl]

it's not that the Anatolians were roamers but they would be on one end of the place and the goats/sheep would be on the other. Katie was my first maremma and her partner at the time was jasper, a 120# 'toile male. when he died I went ahead and found another maremma because I really liked the way they worked. when most folks see my dogs they think they are pyr's because they are big and white and I have to explain the difference in the way they work. they come from
'different sides of the same mountain range. pyrs can be great dogs if you have good fences but I don't and will never be able to afford good fences all the way around my land so my guys work well for me. found some pics you might like of them. hope they'll load.

the first three pics are of Katie, under a tree watching her goats, looking at me like mom you know I hate to have my picture taken and lastly being a trampoline for some of this years babies.
next three are marco watching to see what emma is barking about, laying with a ewe who had just given birth and third just looking at me with that goofy grin of his. marco is 18 months old and came to me as an 11 month old dog. he came from a touch me not kind of farm and he is finally letting me pet him and scratching his backside for him. he is wonderful with the stock and so protective of them. he always lets me know when someone is pulling into the lower gate down at the road before they get to the 2nd gate into my yard whereas Katie meets folks with a wagging tale he greats them with a standoffish attitude and a watchful eye. don't know if you can tell from the pics but she is a very ladylike dry mouthed girl and he is a big goofy drooling guy. he has come a long way in trusting me but we have a ways to go yet.

 

[goatgurl]

lol, I've never had a maremma jump the fence but the first pair of 'tolies I had jumped over 48" woven wire with 2 strands of barbed wire on top to scare 2 years growth out of the neighbor down the road as she jogged past with her dog. she still jogs but no longer brings a dog with her. now she just hollers at kate and marco and they go, ok its just you. neither of these dogs is standoffish with the goats but he sure is with people and I don't have a problem with that. mom was still alive when I first got Katie and she was taught as a pup to leave folks alone and over the years she's watched emma get lots of loving so she now follows suit.
and bee I forgot to say how ben reminds me of the maremmas. he is more laid back, more willing to listen and learn and so gentle with his charges. that doesn't mean he can't goof off or goof up because he is still a pup but these dogs seem to me to mature mentally earlier than the tolies. I've only had one pyr in my goat raising life and spent so much looking for that darn dog that I swore i'd never have another one and I haven't. I know of so many people say they are great dogs and I believe if you have good fences they are but they are just not for me.

 

[goatgurl]

excellent thread bee, I've had lgd's for almost 20 years and couldn't do with them. most of those years I had Anatolian shepherds but a few years back switched to maremma's. I absolutely love the way they tend their stock by staying right with them.
agree with everything you, baymule and FEM have said so far.

 

[baymule]

Puppies are wonderful, cute, fun, lovable, and then they turn into adolescents that are a PITA! LOL But don't dump them for doing something dumb. They seem to have an attack of stupid around 9-11 months old and may chase lambs, kids or chickens. They need to know that such behavior is not acceptable, they need positive reinforcement and don't give up on them. Training, training, training. Repetition, repetition, repetition. Then all of a sudden, the light goes on and they got it.

Just because they are Livestock Guard Dogs, don't dump them in a pasture with livestock and leave them there. These dogs are not magic, they are dogs. They appreciate time with you and they love attention. Yes, they have the bred in instinct for over 2,000 years to take care of their livestock. But they still need guidance from you so set them up to succeed and praise their efforts.

LGD's are worth their weight in gold!

 

[Beekissed]

Ben arrives at 2 mo. old, never having been anywhere near any chickens or even other livestock.

 

[Beekissed]

BUT, my belief is that you can't pigeon hole these dogs. Some are meant to be watchers - some are meant to be patrollers - some are hands on - some are 'big picture' dogs. You aren't going to change the instincts that are bred into the dog.

Learn your dog. Learn their strengths. Learn the weaknesses. Use the dog in the way that they can serve you best. Sometimes you just have to trust the dog to know what he's doing.

I so agree with this!!! When I got Ben and was set to train him on chickens I got all kinds of advice and predictions about what to expect...but I knew what I expected from him and I knew the breeds' capabilities, so didn't listen much to most of the predictions and only some of the advice.

He was good on free ranging with the chickens within a week of arrival at 2 mo. of age and hasn't harmed a chicken yet, here at 2 yrs of age this month. I think all these dogs are individuals, as are most creatures, and each need strong guidance and a clear picture of what you expect. Consistency with that, calm leadership and patience with their thought processes...Ben needs a moment to obey on some things and you can see him working it out in his mind as to what I want and why I want it before he complies, but it's usually mere seconds before he gets it. Sometimes he's way ahead of me and is anticipating what I want.

 

[frustratedearthmother]

They look awesome.

My Pyr is the one that is more stand offish with the goats - not that she won't be right there if they need her - like cuddling a laboring doe on a cold night. I wonder if that comes from being a lone guardian for most of her life? She has always been the one that did everything and I think that made her back off a little so that she could see the big picture and you can't do that if you're right on top of the goats. But, Cowboy - the big Anatolian is an 'in your (goat) face' kinda dog. He was known for fence jumping when he was younger - but he's kinda outgrown that. He never wandered - he was just being social, lol. Now he is the self-appointed bay sitter. He loves his babies!

I have zero experience with Maremma's. Would love to meet one someday!