Lazy Gardener
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@milkmansdaughter You get my bonus points for 7/26. Use them wisely.
Mouse in the House
- Thread starter CrealCritter
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Lazy Gardener
Super Self-Sufficient
Bee, I have a new allotment of bonus points every day. I give them away as I see fit. They originate with me. G. has a whole virtual jar full of them on top of the fridge.
milkmansdaughter
Super Self-Sufficient
@milkmansdaughter You get my bonus points for 7/26. Use them wi[/QUOTE]
Lol! I'll be very careful not to spend them foolishly!
Lol! I'll be very careful not to spend them foolishly!
- Thread starter
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CrealCritter
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Yeah I would have preferred Victor traps (made in the USA) but all they had were PIC (made in China) junk. But they were fixed by an American (me), as is the case with most Chinese junk I buy. I think they were like 12 traps for $12.00 and hardly worth that, with all the work they needed to function correctly.
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CrealCritter
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Its a old farm house on a boulder foundation that I live in, so I'm sure there are lots of places for them to get it. They can get in through the tiniest crack. The house is build well though, it survived the New Madrid earth quake in 1811.
flowerbug
Super Self-Sufficient
that's a pretty big creature! i'd know if it were something like that and i'd also see the entrance somewhere if it were that big.
here is the front view of the house, there are no gaps a mouse can get through on these three sides. i can visually inspect all of the edges and i rarely see tracks in the snow, nor do i catch mice in traps on that side of the house very often when i put them out.
the back side of the house is also mulched in a similar manner. the complexity and spaces i can't visually inspect easily are around the AC unit and under a step where i have already installed wire mesh, but they may be coming in from a neighboring pile of rocks and trees berm which i'd love to remove as that is where all the mice tracks come from and they always hang around the AC unit because it is on their main paths to the North garden (along the edge of the house and then a dash across the limestone).
in this picture you can see most of the back edge not shown in the previous picture is also pretty clear of habitat for any creature, but that green pine tree growing near the house is where the berm is at and the source of many troubles... *sigh*
here is the front view of the house, there are no gaps a mouse can get through on these three sides. i can visually inspect all of the edges and i rarely see tracks in the snow, nor do i catch mice in traps on that side of the house very often when i put them out.
the back side of the house is also mulched in a similar manner. the complexity and spaces i can't visually inspect easily are around the AC unit and under a step where i have already installed wire mesh, but they may be coming in from a neighboring pile of rocks and trees berm which i'd love to remove as that is where all the mice tracks come from and they always hang around the AC unit because it is on their main paths to the North garden (along the edge of the house and then a dash across the limestone).
in this picture you can see most of the back edge not shown in the previous picture is also pretty clear of habitat for any creature, but that green pine tree growing near the house is where the berm is at and the source of many troubles... *sigh*
Lazy Gardener
Super Self-Sufficient
The ermine was smaller than a rat. They can pass through a hole the size of a quarter. He came in through the garage or pass door, then went exploring. May have smelled mouse, and gone looking. there was a hole that hubby cut in an interior wall to install a dark room vent, but never finished building the dark room, so the vent never got installed in the wall. His body was about 6" long.
Nice looking house. I like the stone work.
Nice looking house. I like the stone work.
Lazy Gardener
Super Self-Sufficient
I recently had an extensive e-mail conversation with UMO cooperative extension agents re: the safest poison options for dealing with mice/rats in/around garden and livestock areas. I'll post her pertinent responses.
My initial question was regarding a mouse infestation in my high tunnel. The mice had decimated one of my beds of greens, and was starting on the second one. Here's part of her response:
Below is a response from the State Toxicologist with the Maine Board of Pesticides Control, Pam Bryer. With respect to your first question, I would avoid eating the remaining greens if you are certain they’ve been contaminated by mouse droppings.
As prep for a talk I did recently I went to my local big box store to see what types of rodenticides they were selling. You are right in that many of them are the neurotoxic bromethalin but there are also two others you might be interested in: cholecalciferol and zinc phosphide. And, by the way, if you were to hire a commercial pesticide applicator they would be able to use a different set of pesticides as well (namely the anti-coagulants).
Bromethalin: persistent in soil, doesn’t volatilize, doesn’t wash out, highly likely to transfer up the food chain, not carcinogenic, moderately toxic to soil invertebrates, and highly toxic to mammals. If it were used in the scenario you mentioned it would persist in the soil for some time but it would be difficult for it to be translocated into the plant tissues. Essentially, because it binds tightly to organic matter and is a large molecule it would be difficult for the plant to take it up in significant quantities. Also, you are looking at a volume dilution effect. Rodents are more susceptible to these poisons than humans so a lower dose is used to kill them than would kill us — plus we are much larger and would need many more times the dose than it would take to kill some mice. That said, because of its persistent nature and bioaccumulation potential and toxicity it would be best to avoid that if you can in a garden space.
Cholecalciferol: not persistent in soil, doesn’t volatilize, doesn’t wash out, low likelihood of transferring up the food chain, not carcinogenic, moderately toxic to soil invertebrates and mammals, and low toxicity to birds and fish. Cholecalciferol is another name for vitamin D. Rodents are more susceptible to vitamin D overload than humans, and other mammals, are which makes this a less risky pesticide to use around humans. Because it breaks down in the soil quickly, 97% will be degraded within ~25 days, this becomes a better choice for a garden area. Again, like above, the dilution of the chemical within the soil, and then the plant, and then folks who eat that plant, the actual amount of active ingredient would be unlikely to cause effects. This rodenticide acts by disrupting calcium balance in the body; excess calcium is released from the bones and leads to multiorgan disfunction.
Zinc phosphide: not persistent in soil, doesn’t volatilize, doesn’t wash out, not carcinogenic, low toxicity to soil invertebrates, moderate toxicity to fish, high toxicity to mammals. This compound to changed by the low pH of the rodent stomach into phosphine gas. Phosphine is very volatile and moves quickly into the lungs were it acts to prevent normal respiration and death ensues. The amount of phosphine that is generated is unlikely to harm humans and it ends up dissipating quickly. Phosphine (or a precursor) is used in agriculture as a soil fumigant and agricultural storage fumigant.
Based on this information, I have bought some Cholecalciferol. D-Con is now changing all of their formulation to Cholecalciferol. My research, after reading the links provided by the UMO extension agent was that Cholecalciferol is the ONLY mouse/rat poison that is approved for use around organic farms. I would never buy mouse/rat bait that is not provided in chunk or bar form. The very last thing I want a rodent to do is pick up bait pellets and transport them to a nest. So, no matter what chemical one buys, options are automatically limited if you want it in chunk, block or bars that fit into bait stations.
Further reading tells me that traps may work for a short time if there are only a few mice/rats. However, they quickly become trap wary, and won't touch a trap, or... in the case of the traps set in my HT, IME, they learn how to snap them, so they can take the bait freely. If any feed sources are available: bird feeders, compost piles, gardens, just a few spilled grains from your livestock, hay or straw bales, the rodents will move in and proliferate. The best way to deal with them is to remove ALL feed sources. That may not be possible if you have livestock, or a garden. Next up is a combination of traps and poison. Sadly, if you want to keep rodents from setting up housekeeping with resultant population explosions, IMO poisons must be employed.
My initial question was regarding a mouse infestation in my high tunnel. The mice had decimated one of my beds of greens, and was starting on the second one. Here's part of her response:
Below is a response from the State Toxicologist with the Maine Board of Pesticides Control, Pam Bryer. With respect to your first question, I would avoid eating the remaining greens if you are certain they’ve been contaminated by mouse droppings.
As prep for a talk I did recently I went to my local big box store to see what types of rodenticides they were selling. You are right in that many of them are the neurotoxic bromethalin but there are also two others you might be interested in: cholecalciferol and zinc phosphide. And, by the way, if you were to hire a commercial pesticide applicator they would be able to use a different set of pesticides as well (namely the anti-coagulants).
Bromethalin: persistent in soil, doesn’t volatilize, doesn’t wash out, highly likely to transfer up the food chain, not carcinogenic, moderately toxic to soil invertebrates, and highly toxic to mammals. If it were used in the scenario you mentioned it would persist in the soil for some time but it would be difficult for it to be translocated into the plant tissues. Essentially, because it binds tightly to organic matter and is a large molecule it would be difficult for the plant to take it up in significant quantities. Also, you are looking at a volume dilution effect. Rodents are more susceptible to these poisons than humans so a lower dose is used to kill them than would kill us — plus we are much larger and would need many more times the dose than it would take to kill some mice. That said, because of its persistent nature and bioaccumulation potential and toxicity it would be best to avoid that if you can in a garden space.
Cholecalciferol: not persistent in soil, doesn’t volatilize, doesn’t wash out, low likelihood of transferring up the food chain, not carcinogenic, moderately toxic to soil invertebrates and mammals, and low toxicity to birds and fish. Cholecalciferol is another name for vitamin D. Rodents are more susceptible to vitamin D overload than humans, and other mammals, are which makes this a less risky pesticide to use around humans. Because it breaks down in the soil quickly, 97% will be degraded within ~25 days, this becomes a better choice for a garden area. Again, like above, the dilution of the chemical within the soil, and then the plant, and then folks who eat that plant, the actual amount of active ingredient would be unlikely to cause effects. This rodenticide acts by disrupting calcium balance in the body; excess calcium is released from the bones and leads to multiorgan disfunction.
Zinc phosphide: not persistent in soil, doesn’t volatilize, doesn’t wash out, not carcinogenic, low toxicity to soil invertebrates, moderate toxicity to fish, high toxicity to mammals. This compound to changed by the low pH of the rodent stomach into phosphine gas. Phosphine is very volatile and moves quickly into the lungs were it acts to prevent normal respiration and death ensues. The amount of phosphine that is generated is unlikely to harm humans and it ends up dissipating quickly. Phosphine (or a precursor) is used in agriculture as a soil fumigant and agricultural storage fumigant.
Based on this information, I have bought some Cholecalciferol. D-Con is now changing all of their formulation to Cholecalciferol. My research, after reading the links provided by the UMO extension agent was that Cholecalciferol is the ONLY mouse/rat poison that is approved for use around organic farms. I would never buy mouse/rat bait that is not provided in chunk or bar form. The very last thing I want a rodent to do is pick up bait pellets and transport them to a nest. So, no matter what chemical one buys, options are automatically limited if you want it in chunk, block or bars that fit into bait stations.
Further reading tells me that traps may work for a short time if there are only a few mice/rats. However, they quickly become trap wary, and won't touch a trap, or... in the case of the traps set in my HT, IME, they learn how to snap them, so they can take the bait freely. If any feed sources are available: bird feeders, compost piles, gardens, just a few spilled grains from your livestock, hay or straw bales, the rodents will move in and proliferate. The best way to deal with them is to remove ALL feed sources. That may not be possible if you have livestock, or a garden. Next up is a combination of traps and poison. Sadly, if you want to keep rodents from setting up housekeeping with resultant population explosions, IMO poisons must be employed.
Lazy Gardener
Super Self-Sufficient
@CrealCritter , I've been feeding fermented feed for years. I feed the birds in the morning, putting out only what I expect them to eat. If they don't finish it, I bring the remainder inside at the end of the day, or lock it into a safe place in their coop. One of the benefits of fermented feed is that it is wet, so rodents, even if they were to belly up to the feed bowl... can't carry any feed away. I also stopped putting out bird feeders years ago because it attracted rodents.
I think it's a wise plan to NOT keep feed available at night. Not only does having it available at night welcome rodents, but it could be a draw to some predators.
We live in a rural area, horses less than 1/4 mile from us. My neighbor feeds the birds. So... mice and rats are part of the scenery now.
I think it's a wise plan to NOT keep feed available at night. Not only does having it available at night welcome rodents, but it could be a draw to some predators.
We live in a rural area, horses less than 1/4 mile from us. My neighbor feeds the birds. So... mice and rats are part of the scenery now.
wyoDreamer
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My neighbors feed the birds. My guinea hens go over there every day to get the sunflower seeds that she puts on the ground for them, lol. It seems that the 6 barn cats that we have have been really helpful in lowering the mouse numbers. I snap-trapped a big, fat mouse in the house the other day and all signs of mouse activity in the house have stopped. Even the dead mouse smell from teh basement is gone.
